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Greek parliament approves Athens’ first mosque plan in decades

8 September 2011 General 29 Comments Email This Post Email This Post
The mosque plan was included in an environment ministry bill regulating illegal construction, another long-running concern in Greece. It calls for the renovation of an existing state building – a disused military base – in the run-down Athens industrial district of Elaionas.

The mosque plan was included in an environment ministry bill regulating illegal construction, another long-running concern in Greece. It calls for the renovation of an existing state building – a disused military base – in the run-down Athens industrial district of Elaionas.

Greece’s parliament on Wednesday approved the construction of a new mosque in Athens to satisfy a long-standing demand by thousands of Muslim residents, a government source said.

The project to build the Greek capital’s first official Muslim place of worship in decades was supported by 198 deputies from the centre, right and left (out of 300) against the objections of 16 nationalist MPs.

The mosque plan was included in an environment ministry bill regulating illegal construction, another long-running concern in Greece. It calls for the renovation of an existing state building – a disused military base – in the run-down Athens industrial district of Elaionas.

Thousands of Muslims from Arab nations, Africa and the Indian subcontinent live and work in Athens without official prayer sites or a cemetery, despite years of promises by successive Greek governments.

Muslim faithful have crafted mosques out of rented flats and disused warehouses which are regularly targeted in racist attacks.

Anger towards migrants and attacks have escalated on the streets of Athens in recent months as the debt-hit country battles a growing recession that has brought thousands of job layoffs.

A staunchly Orthodox state with bitter memories of nearly four centuries of Ottoman Turkish rule, Greece currently offers sanctioned Muslim religious sites only near its northeastern border with Turkey where a Muslim minority of Turkish origin lives.

All traces of Islam were eradicated in Athens in the early 19th century when Christianity was restored, and bureaucratic wrangling and opposition from local church leaders and mayors have since stalled plans for a mosque and cemetery.

Original post: Greek parliament approves Athens’ first mosque plan in decades

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29 Comments »

  1. I pray that this Mosque never sees the light of day. This will give the image that Greece is open to that virus called multiculturalism. Trust me, most Greeks don’t want this,nor do they want their country littered with third worlders. GREECE FOR GREEKS!

  2. Btw, I really have no problems with Muslims provided that they stay within their own countries.

  3. This will not happen. The Greeks are too nationalistic to allow this construction, and thank God for that.

  4. Religion and nationality are independent of one another. A person can very well choose to be of any religion they want, unless of course you oppose freedom. Not all Muslims are immigrants. And a person has to be pretty insecure about their own beliefs if they can’t stand having people around who believe something else.

    Multiculturalism only threatens those who can’t stand a little competition ;)

  5. ALL PRAISES TO GOD .

  6. My dad is what you would call a pure White American. With blond hair, blue eyes, and a name like Donald G Bennett III, you would automatically think he’s Christian. He was born Christian, but later became Muslim which is why I have an Arabic first name and a typical American last name. Islam is a religion based on religious belief in God not on the color of your skin or where you come from. Sorry to tell you this Greekzilla, but if you only feel comfortable with Muslims staying in their own countries, then you will never feel comfortable living anywhere else in the world.

  7. hannah,

    “Religion and nationality are independent of one another.” so why are there islamic nations? why the oic? “Not all Muslims are immigrants.” of course not you have anecdotal evident from bennet. but i would bet the the vast majority in greece are. why do people have to imigrate out of islamic nations?

    “Multiculturalism only threatens those who can’t stand a little competition” are you talking about the sunnis blowing up shia mosques? the persians driving the zorostians out? the iranians jailing bahai? the indonesians killing ahmadis? the pakistanis passing article XX? the saudis not allowing a church to be built in the entire country? the turks not allowing a cross on the church of the holy cross?

    “Multiculturalism only threatens those who can’t stand a little competition” what does that mean? competition for the direction of the nation? for the culture of the nation? for the laws to be imposed?

  8. I don’t think u understand the meaning of the word multiculturalism. Nobody was talking about sunnis blowing up mosques or why the persians kicked out the fire worshipers. This is extremism and intolerance, not multiculturalism. U are siting only the negatives about ppl who are different from u, more on Muslims but no mention on Christians or Jews, and it has made u prejudice.
    I didn’t hear u talk about why the USA is allowed to have enough atomic weapons to blow up the world but they refuse to let any Muslim countries build their own. They can invade any country they want and no one can stop them. We had slavery in the US for over 400 years, but does that mean it is a part of the religion or culture of the Christians? No! It is because of the individuals who choose to be oppressors. They made up their own interpretation of the Bible to justify their actions. I didn’t hear u talk about how Britain supported and supplied weapons to the Jewish immigrants (Zionists)so that they could take Palestine/Israel away from the Muslims who had been ruling it for about 1000 years. I didn’t hear u talk about the imperialism of Britain and France in others countries.
    Wonder why Iran dislikes America? Because after Saddam Hussein declared war on Iran, the USA supported this dictator in order for him to take over Iran. They did this simply bcuz they were in league with Saddam and wanted control of Iran’s oil. Why does America preach about how great democracy is if they support dictators? The Iraqis didn’t like Saddam, and majority of the Arabs don’t like the Saudi Arabian monarchy. The only reason they can’t create a democracy is bcuz the US supports the monarchy so that they can continue their oil business with Arabia. If anyone ever decided to protest against they monarchy they would loose everything. The US would not support the opposition to the monarchy. This is a case of a double standard of America’s foreign policies. That’s why u don’t see major protests in Arabia like we have in Libya or like we had in Egypt. It would be 10 times worse.
    In conclusion, maybe u should look at what your government is doing and ask yourself if it is on the right track. Do you believe your government is always right? Do you think they are free from crimes? That is up to u to decide.

  9. Muahmmad Bennett,

    three or more cultures? acceptance of different cultures within one nation? my referance to sunnis blowing up mosques etc..was sarcasm. excellent deflection though, but when you mention christians and jews you are supposed to bring up the crusades and the occupied territories respectively. i find all the abrahamic religions to be out dated and full of violence. the god of abraham is extremely violent. see the old testement. “USA is allowed to have enough atomic weapons to blow up the world but they refuse to let any Muslim countries build their own” uhm, its called the npt, non-proliferation treaty. btw pakistan has nukes, they are not a signature to the npt along with israel, india, (well you can google it), unlike iran. “They can invade any country they want and no one can stop them.” you’re right. maybe the eu and china will sanction us and stop selling us stuff? yeah maybe we’ll get our manufacturing base back? “We had slavery in the US for over 400 years, but does that mean it is a part of the religion or culture of the Christians?” yes, again see old testement. yeah i’ve read the Balfour Declaration. but see this is exactly my point. muslims say they only fight defensive wars and that you only kill people for making mischief in the land? ok, so how far back do we go? what is mischief. the british and the french where empires, no doubt, so was holland, belgium, germany, etc…oh yeah so was the usa. the west admits it’s past. hell we recorded it.

    “Wonder why Iran dislikes America? Because after Saddam Hussein declared war on Iran, the USA supported this dictator in order for him to take over Iran.” sort of. the already hated us. see iran hostage crisis, we supported the shah of iran. see cia intervention in overthrow of lthe shah. 1959? “The only reason they can’t create a democracy is bcuz the US supports the monarchy so that they can continue their oil business with Arabia.” really, so why couldn’t the iranians overthrow their governmet? why did mubarak and ali fall? why are the syrians struggling so, we don’t support assad? “only” is way to strong of word. “If anyone ever decided to protest against they monarchy they would loose everything.” now you seem to contridict yourself? “The US would not support the opposition to the monarchy” i wouldn’t be to sure about that? mubarak and ali were our boys, we supported the opposition, in fact i think we help pressure them out. but yes our foriegn policy is schizophrentic at best.

    “Do you believe your government is always right?” lol…of course not. i don’t even like our government. i don’t find anything to always be right. unlike some, i don’t throw the word perfection around. so do you think the koran is always right? nice talking to ya, i won’t hold my breath waiting for a response.

  10. Muahmmad Bennett,

    btw the usa is only 200 years old. but get my history wrong all the time too. 1959? and i thought we only kept him in power.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

    “The 1953 coup d’état was the first time the U.S. used the CIA to overthrow a democratically elected, civil government.[116] The Eisenhower administration viewed Operation Ajax as a success, with “immediate and far-reaching effect. Overnight, the CIA became a central part of the American foreign policy apparatus, and covert action came to be regarded as a cheap and effective way to shape the course of world events”—a coup engineered by the CIA called Operation PBSUCCESS toppling the duly elected Guatemalan government of Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, which had nationalised farm land owned by the United Fruit Company, followed the next year.”

  11. Muahmmad Bennett,

    so should someone not be allowed to worship fire? your acceptance of multiculturalism is a guiding light for us all!!!!!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

    “Zoroastrians believe that there is one universal and transcendent God, Ahura Mazda. He is said to be the one uncreated Creator to whom all worship is ultimately directed.[6] Ahura Mazda’s creation—evident as asha, truth and order—is the antithesis of chaos, which is evident as druj, falsehood and disorder. The resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity, which has an active role to play in the conflict.

    The religion states that active participation in life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. This active participation is a central element in Zoroaster’s concept of free will, and Zoroastrianism rejects all forms of monasticism. Ahura Mazda will ultimately prevail over the evil Angra Mainyu or Ahriman, at which point the universe will undergo a cosmic renovation and time will end. In the final renovation, all of creation—even the souls of the dead that were initially banished to “darkness”—will be reunited in Ahura Mazda, returning to life in the undead form. At the end of time, a savior-figure (a Saoshyant) will bring about a final renovation of the world (frasho.kereti), in which the dead will be revived.”

    sounds familiar to me?

  12. Yes mike I have read the Old testament, the slavery spoken about talks about the history of how people had slavery but god didn’t support all these forms of slavery. A person can choose to work as a slave for their master for 6 years then be released on the 7 year with provisions from his master. They were treated kindly, unlike the slavery we had in America. They were paid, and their children were not made slaves unless the master was the one who provided the wife for his servant. Notice how I used the word servant just now. In the same passage that talked about slavery in one line, will automatically switch to calling the person a servant in the next few lines. Is this a contradiction in the Bible? Well ppl have been playing with the English words for centuries and unfortunately have not been able to preserve the original text. As for why God is so violent in the Bible, I have met many ppl who say the same thing as you. If you don’t read it carefully and study the history of every nation God destroyed, you would not understand God’s reasoning. God never destroyed a nation that was unaware of their sins. He sent prophets to every nation, then the people rejected the prophets. The prophets only told people to enjoy what was good and forbid evil. That was not good enough for them, so they demanded miracles. LOL, they needed a miracle to show them murder, rape, molestation, sodomy, alcohol consumption, etc. Even after these miracle were shown, they still disobeyed. GOD IS SEVERE IN PUNISHMENT TO OPPRESSORS AND THOSE WHO REJECT TRUTH AND HIM. However, those who followed the prophets and repented were forgiven and not punished. I don’t know if you pity those people or not, but they only oppressed themselves.

  13. The reason not all Muslims can overthrow their government is bcuz they are not strong enough. Do you know about the Hama massacre in Syria in the 1970s? Muslims in the Middle East countries are terrified the same will happen to them. Even when the Muslims protested tens of thousands of innocent civilians were wiped out. Protest unsuccessful, thousands dead doesn’t seem like motivation to protest. The Saudi government follow the teachings of Wahabi, who did not like Muslims who practice dzhkir (remembrance of God thru reciting praises of God). Muslims who did dzhkir were labeled Sufi. Wahabi was corrupted by a British scholar into believing this part of Islam was evil. So there was a struggle for power and Muslims killing Muslims. Eventually the Wahabis won, but it does not mean they are very Islamic or even Muslim. Muslims don’t protest in Saudi bcuz keeping silent means keeping ur head. I’ve met plenty of Arabs who now live here in Malaysia and they criticize their government openly to me bcuz they are safe here. They can throw u in jail without trial for speaking out against government. :)
    Protests in the Middle East today were triggered by the successful protests in Tunisia. Did America jump in to help the Syrians in the 1970s? U might say, “well America did condemn the attack.”
    Well America came to the aid of Kuwait in the 1990s to protect the people from Saddam Hussein, right? Nope, it was to protect the oil in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Ever wondered why it was called “Desert Shield”? That’s the only reason the US got involved, because of its own interest. The Nayirah testimony was one of the major reasons the US invaded Kuwait. Nayirah claimed the Iraqi soldiers were dumping babies out of their incubators. Everyone can now see that the US invades these countries to protect the people, sometimes. America didn’t care whether Nayirah was telling the truth, and they didn’t bother to investigate, and the excuse for this is bcuz we had to invade Kuwait quickly b4 anything worse could happen.
    Wow, so we jump to the rescue as soon as we hear from 1 testimony that babies are being killed without any evidence. Again, why didn’t they do the same for Syria? They condemned the attacks in Syria only to preserve their reputation with the rest of the world.

    U seem smart enough to know that the internet is a better source of info the the news. Read the excuse of the mass civilian murders in Syria.

    According to Syrian media in the 1970s, anti-government rebels initiated the fighting, who “pounced on our comrades while sleeping in their homes and killed whomever they could kill of women and children, mutilating the bodies of the martyrs in the streets, driven, like mad dogs, by their black hatred.” Security forces then “rose to confront these crimes” and “taught the murderers a lesson that has snuffed out their breath”
    I think if the US stopped supporting bad governments like in Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, who attack their own people, maybe Muslims will have a better opinion of the US government.

  14. LOL, srry about saying fire worshipers as a term for Zoroastrians. I used the term bcuz the Zoroastrians usually prayed in the presence of fire as a source of light. Some people labeled them fire worshipers becuz they were often seen prostrating towards the fire like the Arabs in Pre-Islamic Arabia. The Arabs had built idols out of wood and stone. They would prostrate to these “gods” in worship. Prophet Muhammad (S) asked them the same question prophet Ibrahim (A) asked his people. “Why do you bow to idols of your own creation made of wood and stone?” Their reply was that they were not worshiping wood and stone but the Spirit of God that resided within the wood and stone. They didn’t have proof, but they used it as an excuse.
    I’m also surprised by your knowledge of how the US government supported the Shah. I take it you can understand why Muslims don’t like the US government. Most people I meet believe what the media says, “The MOoslims wanna kill us becuz they hate our freedom.” LOL, Canada has freedom but we don’t hate Canada. Again, it is the foreign policy and double standard.
    I didn’t mention the Crusaders because they killed people of all religions. They even killed one of the Popes in Spain. The Christian leaders believed Islam had a distorted view of God. Ironically, majority of the Christians were illiterate themselves. The popes gave very moving sermons, which encouraged the invasion and recapture of the countries lost to the Muslims. I don’t believe there would have been any war if the majority of people could read translations of the Qur’an.
    As for Jihad (struggle) determined in Islam, there are 2 kinds: one is internally, where a person must fight their own shortcomings which cause them to sin. The other can be used for terms of fighting in self-defense. Often at times, Muslims have had to go on the offensive because their enemies kept coming back for round 2 and 3. The reason the Muslims started war with the Byzantine empire was bcuz one of the sub-kings from the empire, on the border between Syria and Arabia, killed a Muslim ambassador who had come to preach of another prophet from God. This was considered an international crime at the time and still is today. Muslims send in a small army to punish this king, king gets back-up from the Byzantine army, fighting breaks out, Muslims win first battle, High King becomes alarmed and sends in more troop, Muslims get back-up and push Byzantine army back to the stronghold of Damascus. Damascus gets conquered and thus begins more series of campaigns. U get the picture.

  15. Muahmmad Bennett,

    well many ppl on this site pull verses from deuteronomy to show the violent nature of jewish and christian slavery? i’m thoroughly confused? so do you not believe that god flooded the entire eatrh? do you not beleive god killed the first born of the egyptians on passover? i think that would be considered collective punishment, and a crime against humanity by the un? talk about killing babies?

    ““Why do you bow to idols of your own creation made of wood and stone?” Their reply was that they were not worshiping wood and stone but the Spirit of God that resided within the wood and stone. They didn’t have proof, but they used it as an excuse.” well that’s a tough one to prove. so when christians go to church and knell before a wooden crucifix, are they commiting idolaty? i know several hippie types who believe that the spirit of god is in all things? uhm, strange that muhammad and abraham don’t understand symbolism better, given all the ritual they demand of their followers?

  16. Muahmmad Bennett,

    wow, your analysist of our foriegn policy is almost as sparatic as the policy itself? don’t know anyting about “the Hama massacre” but i’ll look into it. but if you expected ford or carter to jump into anything i think your crazy. not sure we supported (in the 70’s)and i know we don’t now support the syrian government. it was assad’s father in charge at the time, and the syrians are buddies with iranians and support hezbollah. also comparing and internal massacre and an invation of a recongized member of the un is apples and organges. as for oil, i don’t deny that it is a great motivator. but think about kuwait. if we really only wanted cheap oil, why not let saddam have it? like you said we supported him against iran. we were friends with him. the reason he invaded kuwait is because he depleted his coffers in that war and wanted kuwaits oil wealth. so why not let him pump the oil, what’s the difference? he might even increase prodution. instead we disrupted supply for how long? anyways, we jumped into somalia to try and help. the dragged our guys body through the streets for that. we jumped in to bosnia to help. we jump into libya then eveeryone said that’s a bad idea let the europeans handle it, good thinking you think they could do something. we jumped in AGAINST the french and english and israel when they tried to take back the suez canal from the egytians. we tried to get genocide declared in the sudan but no one wanted to hear about it. we had our hands full at the time. we value human life and we try to help out quite often. again ben ali and mubarack where both our boys. don’t you think we put pressure on them to step down. we have no influence in syria and iran. but yeah we are going to pick our battles. we didn’t jump in to help the tibetins. but we did jump in to help the south koreas. lol so the british are to blame for wahhbism? it’s the salfiest that scare me.

    “maybe Muslims will have a better opinion of the US government.” if we stop supporting israel i’m sure the muslims will like us more, but that ain’t gona happen, their lobby is to strong.

  17. Muahmmad Bennett,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

    more reasons for muslims to kill. apostates every where.

    “The Ba’ath party was secular, nationalist and led by the minority Alawites, which conservative Sunni Muslims considered Apostates.”

    from the pagelink to what Alawites are?

    The Alawis take their name from ‘Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib cousin and son-in-law of Muḥammad,[11] who was the first Shi’a Imam and the fourth and last “Rightly Guided Caliph” of Sunni Islam.

    so muhammad you expect america (reagan, it was ’82) to back the muslims brotherhood?

    i knew sect heard from. salim you still want to say you know what you get with islam??????? so know there is a sufi form af shia, i thought the sufis fell under sunnis? you guys are as disected as the christians.

  18. we tried to jump in and help out in lebanon in the early ’80s.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing

    now i see you point. it’s america’s responsibility to keep muslims from killing each other? and since reagan withdrew WE have encouraged more terrorism. clearly it is ALL america’s fault. oh wait that happened before this. still i’m sure it’s the american empires fault that muslims kill each other with such regularity. or maybe there is something in the koran driving this behavior?????

  19. mike

    well many ppl on this site pull verses from deuteronomy to show the violent nature of jewish and christian slavery?

    haven’t you been doing the same thing with Islam, like every two seconds you post an ayah or surah without really researching the meaning behind it or the pretenses it was in, otherwise known as tafseer.

    And then you bring links from southeast asia, one of the regions with the most hypocritical govs. in the world, ones that kill their own people WAY more than anyone in the western hemisphere.

  20. elle,

    yes, i do the same thing. well i don’t try to deflect from one abrahamic religion with the other. i have no problem with them posting deuteronomy. post the whole bible. i was agreeing with them. i beleive jewish, christain and islamic law all allow for slavery. i have no problem with you posting a verse and saying BAM there is proof that god doesn’t force a religion on people. so what are your views on blasphemy and apostates? should there be a punishment for them? i have no problem with zainab posting a verse that says to kill one person is like killing all mankind. it just cracks me up when the very next verse says to crucify people and to cut off their hands and feet.

    ok, so let me get the rules straight. no saudi arabia, no pakistan, no iran, who else? how about africa? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14964554

    i see they are fighting in yemen, but that is pretty much saudi arabia, not allowed to mention that, they aren’t “true” muslims, right.

    “ones that kill their own people WAY more than anyone in the western hemisphere.” i agree totally the western hemisphere is rainbows and candy compared to the islamic world. why is that? but you have to understand, here in america we don’t just live with poeple killing us all the time and say, oh well it’s part of life. we react and do something. our something may not always be right but we don’t just lay down when someone hits us. well reagan did in ’83 but that was a mistake. so what is it in your religion that lets one person talk another into blowing themselves up. or flying planes into building, oh yeah that’s right, that didn’t happen.

  21. Ezekiel 18:20

    20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Although Christians believe in orginial sin based on passages from Genesis this passage would seem to contradict that. So does God hold us responsible for the sins of our father’s or not? That’s up to you to decide. I’m Muslim, and like Christians I also believe God is just. I don’t believe those children went to hell either. Yes, these people died together with their parents, but God does not say the children suffer in Hell for what their parents did, they were innocent. However, if they grew up and became corrupted by their parents, and followed the same path their parents did, they would be punished.
    If u believe in a soul then u believe in God. All souls were created by God and all souls will return to God. God decided to return the children’s souls to him b4 they became corrupted. So if your angry the Bible says children go to hell, then remember that this is only how Christians interpret the Bible. Islam does not believe in orginal sin. In the Qur’an, the Jews questioned Prophet Muhammad (S)about the truth of what he spoke of. They thought that if his teachings were from God, then it would agree with their form of worship. They questioned him about many things, including the existance of the soul and original sin. In response to the existance of the soul, Prophet Muhammad (S) said that are given but a limited amount of knowledge so they should not reject God until they can disprove the soul. As to orginal sin, and many other questions they asked, God rejects what they say about original sin. He says several times in the Qur’an “Produce your proof if you are truthful.” That seems like logical reasoning from God to me. So in case you insist that God is a murderer of children, remember, the soul belongs to God. Just because the children died it does not mean they went to hell, that is only the assumption people make. So one more time, “Produce your proof if you are truthful.”

    “cut off their hands and feet.” which you were quoting from the Qur’an is another proof that u have no understanding of what you read. I COULD LAUGH AT U BECAUSE I MEET SO MANY PEOPLE WHO SAY THE SAME THING. The verse is from 4:89 of the Qur’an. The passage was referring to a specific time in history, known as the Battle of Uhud. The actual Arabic word used for these people was Munafiqun (Moonafeeqoon), the people who pretended to be Muslims only to hurt the Muslims when they went out onto the battlefield.
    And in the next line verse 90 it says: “Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.”

    You see, at the end of verse 90 Allah clearly says the Muslims do not have permission to fight if they (Munafiqun) do not fight with the Muslims.

  22. Muhammad Bennett,

    “The verse is from 4:89 of the Qur’an.” no i was quoting 5:33. as for the battle of mount uhud i’m i bit familiar. that is where the archers broke ranks from the mount to retrive their spoils allowing khalid al-walid (the future sword of allah) to out flank muhammad. anyways, i thought we where talking american foriegh policy and our love for the assad’s? anyways, i don’t believe in original sin. and i know that muslims don’t blame eve for the “fall from grace” unlike the christians. somehow that is a point to show that men and women are equal in islam????

    “I don’t believe those children went to hell either. Yes, these people died together with their parents, but God does not say the children suffer in Hell for what their parents did, they were innocent.” so god did kill the innocent?

    “However, if they grew up and became corrupted by their parents, and followed the same path their parents did, they would be punished.” so would not the ultimate love of a parent be to kill their own child, perhaps damning themselves to hell but guaranteeing their child’s ascension to heaven? maybe that is why that guy in texas killed his two daughters for becoming too westernized? stop their corruption, save their souls. you know i was in the sauna at the ymca once and this woman made a comment about the innocents of the children playing in the pool. and this guy said, “that’s why the go straight to heaven when they die”. she and i looked at each other. then he left and she said to me, “did he just say that”. he kind of sounded he intended to help them along. you religious types can be scary.

    “God decided to return the children’s souls to him b4 they became corrupted. So if your angry the Bible says children go to hell, then remember that this is only how Christians interpret the Bible.” no i’m not angry. god can kill all the children he wants. (well that sounds bad, but it’s your concept) hey maybe that is what the terrorists think. no harm in killing children, they go right back to god. muhammad you are starting to scare me

    “should not reject God until they can disprove the soul.” you can’t prove a negative. that’s like saying prove to me there are no aliens.

    “Just because the children died it does not mean they went to hell, that is only the assumption people make.” i never made that assumption, i’m just saying according to your mythology god kills children. seems like a bad example to set.

    ““Produce your proof if you are truthful.”” of what??? original sin????? i don’t believe in original sin. is this like proving that the spirit of god is in a tree?

    “I COULD LAUGH AT U BECAUSE I MEET SO MANY PEOPLE WHO SAY THE SAME THING.” glad i could make you laugh, i hear it lowers blood pressure.

  23. [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

    4:89

    ودوا لو تكفرون كما كفروا فتكونون سواء فلا تتخذوا منهم أولياء حتى يهاجروا في سبيل الله فإن تولوا فخذوهم واقتلوهم حيث وجدتموهم ولا تتخذوا منهم وليّا ولا نصيرا

    They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

  24. If you read from previous verses of this chapter you would still find that it only talks about hypocrites (Munafiqun), not disbelievers in general, your translation (in Arabic and English) doesn’t say Kuffar or Kafir (Arabic term for disbeliever). The same thing applies to Surah Al Ma’idah. In the very second sentence of this chapter Allah says:
    2. “O you who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah, nor of the Sacred Month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlanded people or animals, etc. [Marked by the garlands on their necks made from the outer part of the tree-stems (of Makkah) for their security], nor the people coming to the Sacred House (Makkah), seeking the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when you finish the Ihram (of Hajj or ‘Umrah), you may hunt, and let not the hatred of some people in (once) stopping you from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help you one another in Al-Birr and At-Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety); but do not help one another in sin and transgression. And fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.”

    The people of Makkah did not want the Muslims to worship Allah at Makkah. They were idol worshipers and could not stand to see the Muslims worshiping one God. These would be considered Mushrikeen or Kuffar. They sought to wage war with the Muslims simply out of hatred. But Allah mentions at the beginning not to let their hatred bother you.

    In verse 8: 8. “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.”

    Allah tells Muslims to be just. Do not let the hate of the Mushrikeen make you unjust. Only then did God say in verse 33:
    “The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.”
    The Muslims only want to pray to God because its part of their religion. If the Mushrikeen decide they want to wage war with us (first) then God declares that this will be their punishment. Prophet Muhammad (S) did not recite these verses of the Quran to tell us to kill disbelievers. The Mushrikeen were also aware of these verses (due to the information brought to them by the hypocrite Muslims), but if they still want to wage war, they are just asking for it.

  25. sure that’s 8:8? anyways, see that’s what started this whole mess. we waged a war against muslims in the first gulf war. bin laden appearently took a little afront to that. our infidel boots on holy saudi soil. then we remaind with the no fly zones and our sanction supposedly lead to innocent iraqi children dying? well that and the irsaeli/palestinian issue. un vote today, looks like we are going to veto palestinian membership. wonder how that will be interpreted by muslims. don’t you think many muslim see america as a modern day equivalent to the meccans? so if iraqis or afghans capture an american soldier they would be right to cut of a hand and foot and crucify him/her?

    so do you think blasphamy is making mischief in the land? what about adultry? you support stoning? how about the opening of the 24th surah? is that good law?

    so do you think the koran is always right? see that’s why i don’t hold my breath.

  26. I’m getting a bit tired of this…I think your last short comment agrees with me. The logic used in the Qur’an is that humans will not be able to totally accept what Allah says because he does not appeal to all our desires. Perhaps he gave you advice which was better for you but you disagreed with it because it was unappealing? Perhaps I’m a rapist who has a craving for young female flesh. I think the God in the Quran is outrageous because he would sentence me to death for fulfilling my lustful desires. “I was created with a body that has a great desire for female flesh, why does God punish me even though he made me this way?”
    The same applies to those who commit adultery. The verse you quoted was also meant precisely for Muslims (although it was also commanded to the Jews and Christians). Fornicators get a 100 lashes and adulterers get stoned. Also, you need 4 male witnesses who testify to seeing the act committed. LOL, if 4 men were able to see this taking place it would mean the adulterers are doing it were ordinary ppl in public can see. Second point, only bout 2 or 3 ppl actually got stoned during Prophet Muhammad (S)’s time (period of 23 years). They were all self-confessions. Chopping of the hand from the wrist also has guidelines. For a person to receive this penalty:
    1) They must be aware of this punishment.
    2) They must be able to distinguish between right and wrong.
    3) They must still above a certain minimum.
    4) Stealing within the family does not incur the penalty.
    5) Person must not be stealing out of hunger.

    I know, a lot of rules. Not at all the ‘Aladdin’ movie created by Disney. Maybe you can check to see who really runs Walt Disney today.
    I know how the west portrays Muslims overseas getting violent as soon as someone bad mouths Islam. Remember, with about 1.5 billion people who are Muslim, even pissing off 1% is still a lot of Muslims. A lot of people are too sensitive. The penalty in the Qur’an for inventing lies against Allah? That punishment is given by Allah. Muslims are not commanded or even given permission to get violent over those who commit blasphemy.

  27. Never said blasphemy was making mischief in the land, neither does the Qur’an say it.
    The rules in the Qur’an are meant for Muslims. By definition, a Muslim is one who submits to God physically, mentally, and spiritually. Someone who does not believe in listening to God does so to his/her own loss.
    Remember 10:99 in the Qur’an?
    “And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed – all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?” http://quran.com/

    Or maybe 2:256?
    “There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut (cross the limits, overstep boundaries,” or to rebel) and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.” http://quran.com/

    How about this Hadith?
    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing.”

    Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1011

  28. There won’t be any mosque in Athens for history reasons (we will never forgive the muslims to have once change our Parthenon into a mosque).
    Also we won’t forgive the ongoing zionist occupation of Constantinoole by suni muslims, the occupation of Northern Cyprus and the colonization of Orthodox Kosovo by Muslim Albanians.
    Free Orthodox lands from Islamic oppression.

    And also Hellas isn’t and won’t be a multicultural country, it’s a Religious Orthodox State and to be Greek you need to be Orthodox. It’s part of our cultural identity.

    Here is the place of the religion in Greece :
    http://www.thearda.com/QuickLists/QuickList_205.asp

    Also don’t forget there aren’t churches in Mecca and Medina.

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