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EEOC sues Albuquerque hotel over ban on employee wearing hijab

23 September 2011 General 31 Comments Email This Post Email This Post

704 HTL Operating, LLC and Investment Corporation of America, doing business as MCM Elegante Hotel in Albuquerque, violated federal law by subjecting a Muslim woman to religious discrimination and to retaliation for opposing the discrimination, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) charged in a lawsuit it filed on September 21, 2011.

In its suit, the EEOC said that the hotel failed to accommodate Safia Abdullah’s request to work wearing a hijab, a head scarf worn by Muslim women for religious purposes. In addition, the EEOC alleges that the hotel either failed to hire Abdullah or discharged her because of her religion and/or because she engaged in the protected conduct of opposing discrimination, including requesting religious accommodation.

Such alleged conduct violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employment discrimination based on religion and retaliation for opposition to discrimination. The EEOC filed suit in U.S. District Court for the District of New Mexico (EEOC v. 704 HTL Operating, LLC and Investment Corporation of America Civil Action No. 1:11-cv-00845) after first attempting to reach a voluntary settlement through its conciliation process.

“We will vigorously prosecute cases of religious discrimination throughout our district, including claims that involve the employer’s refusal to provide reasonable accommodation for an individual’s religious beliefs,” said Regional Attorney Mary Jo O’Neill of the EEOC’s Phoenix District Office, which has jurisdiction over Arizona, Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico and Utah. “We are particularly concerned when the accommodation requested is easy to provide and the employer appears to have reacted to myths or stereotypes about a religion.”

Original post: EEOC sues Albuquerque hotel over ban on employee wearing hijab

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31 Comments »

  1. I’ll just bet this muslima was NOT wearing a hijab when she applied for the job. Why is it they always demand to wear the hijab after they are hired? That’s when the whining to be accommodated starts , immediately followed by a lawsuit. No wonder people don’t want to hire them.

  2. It is a good thing your bets have little weight on the matter then, Anonymous.

  3. Should it matter if she’s wearing the hijab at work? whether she wore it or not, it’s wrong to ban a hijab because it represents freedom of religion and speech. Or wait, it doesn’t apply anymore because the patriot act eliminated that, didn’t it?

  4. It is the incredibly deceitful way this is done. Show up to an interview without the hijab and then after the probation period is up demand to be able to wear one. I object to the deceit and the demands. As far I’m concerned islam does not command that muslim women wear hijabs. It is a personal choice not a religious dictate.

  5. The article never said that she didn’t wear a hijab in the interview. In fact, it implies that she might have been denied a job because of her religion. “The EEOC alleges that the hotel either failed to hire Abdullah or discharged her because of her religion and/or because she engaged in the protected conduct of opposing discrimination, including requesting religious accommodation.” There is not enough specifics to jump to the assumption that they even agreed to hire her. And even if they didn’t, what they are doing is still against the law. It’s the same as not hiring a black man just because he’s black.

  6. Orthodox Jewish women cover their heads.

    But no that must be entirely different.

    A religious dictate to cover up from the unworthy and deceitful eye is so wrong here. Why is that. It’s a form of modesty, and in fact it IS mandatory, but it’s because we cover up our beauty and show t only to those who deserve to. Other women, your family, your husband, your children.

  7. If it’s mandatory why do so many muslims choose to not wear the hijab? And if it’s “mandatory” why do muslimas go to job interviews without the hijab?

    I haven’t heard of any orthodox Jews sewing for religious accommodation lately , have you? They aren’t expecting the rest of us to follow their religious law but muslims are are forcing soft sharia down our throats with their religious demands. Apples & oranges.

  8. Where does it say that the plaintiff didn’t wear hijab at job interview?

  9. I didn’t know Americans were being forced to follow Sharia law… maybe the Middle Easterners are but are you being forced to pray in a masjid? Oh you poor thing.

    It is mandatory but muslims don’t follow the Quran. Or they say they aren’t ready to.

    “O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.” (Quran 7:26)

    “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, or their brothers’ sons or their sisters’ sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).

  10. Ways that non-muslims are being forced to submit to sharia law.

    !) being called names & labelled racists (what race is islam exactly?) if they dare speak the truth about islam
    2) Being threatened ( riots, murders car-b-ques) if they draw cartoons of or criticize mohammed
    3) Being forced to listen to the muslim call to prayer 5x day while church bells are not allowed.
    4) Being forced to install (and pay for) foot baths in various places to accommodate muslims
    5) Being forced to accept special privileges for muslims at work (more time off than other staff)
    6) Schools being used for muslim prayer when anything Christian is condemned
    7) Being forced to accommodate prayer spaces for muslims in existing chapels and having to remove other religious symbols so as not to offend them (hospital chapels for instance).
    8) Being forced to share public spaces with individuals who conceal their identity (niquab)
    9) Being forced to buy meat products that may be halal and not marked as such.
    10) Being forced to allow seoarate days/times for muslimas at public swimming pools.
    11) Being forced to endure the oppression of muslim females
    12) Being the unlucky destination of “honor murders” which before muslim immigration were very infrequent
    13) Growth of anti-semitism
    14) Segregation of genders (in mosques etc.) in a country that has fought & won equal rights for women
    plus what I have mentioned above, just to name a small part of the creeping sharia or subtle & not so subtle attempts to make non-muslims submit to islamic laws.

    Oh and lets not forget the current push by the OIC to make criticism of religion (read islam) illegal world wide & punishable .

  11. 1. Well there are racists that are against Islam because they find Pakistani, Bangledeshi, Arab and North African and label them as all dirty arabs. So one, they are racist against arabs and do not know the difference, and so if a Muslim openly hated on Christianity what would you call them?

    2. Those who threatened that Dane that made the cartoon were extremists, and you know it. The people I know were mad but they didn’t do anything. they didn’t rally or get violent. And again, if a Muslim in your neighborhood or city openly tried to make fun of Jesus (which is an oxymoron because we believe in Jesus too) and i know some Muslims do it and theyre stupid but thats why Islam should be judged by the book, not the people. people grow corrupt. meanwhile, I heard that Danish guy who drew the cartoon was driving once and his car fell into this gaping hole-ditch thing and he died. That’s what I heard.

    3. Where exactly? In America? I hear church bells literally a block away on sundays. I live like right next to two churches. You don’t see any Muslims attacking those places. And the call to prayer at my mosque isn’t exactly loud, and it lasts for 2 minutes. And the call for prayer is like this “God is great, god is great, there is no god but Allah (god in Arabic) Muhammad is his last messenger, come to prayer, come to success, God is great, god is great, there is no god but Allah”. It don’t last long. But hey there are chruches here, and in Syria and lebanon and libya and Egypt and palestine and other middle estern countries because judaism, Islam and Christianity all started around that area. In SA? Not many christians, and like I said, SA and Afghanistan are corrupt places who target and oppress their own. It’s sad but in the end it’s a test.

    4.Where are the footbaths? Mosques. I’ve never seen one outside. Can you bring me proof? Nope. I know you can’t. They only come in Mosques and some are found in wealthy Muslim homes. But they don’t put them in resturaunts and hospitals. They don’t even have them in my school. And it’s a mostly Muslim school.

    5.Christians and Jews that get Hanukkah and Christmas off- Muslims get Eid off. That’s it. Don’t say Ramadan because that’s a Muslim version of Lent and no one gets off on Lent or ramadan. Other than that its about the same as any other employee. If a Muslim takes off work to visit a relative in the hospital, you can’t blame it on a religion.

    6 and 7. Some schools don;t allow Islamic anything. Colleges have their own chruches attached but no Mosques. Just seperate prayer rooms. Visited Loyola University and they had a beautiful Cathedral with a HUGE organ and it was so nice and then i went into the Muslim prayer room and it was just four walls and a prayer rug. I dealt with it. We’re not complaining. In fact, they offer bible studies just as much as Quran or torah studies.

    8. What’s wrong with niqabis? Literally, you aren’t forced to, she’s just a regular human being, so she covers her face…does that make her less human to you? She chose to wear the veil (Islam doesn’t mandate the niqab just hijab) what, is she going to look at you? Oh dear me that’s so dangerous. In the 60’s people complained about sharing public spaces with African Americans. This is really no different.

    9.LOL do you know what halal means? LMFAO you really dont know your stuff! halal means no pork or alcoholic products. Arabic for Kosher, pretty much. That’s one thing that links Jews and Muslims, we eat practically the same things. And the meat you complain about is only sold in Islamic food markets. Do you shop there? Chill. lol seriously? Oh lord I can’t stop laughing. “Forced to buy halal products!” OMG what is kosher food going to do to you? Is it gonna poison you? No! Why would we eat it then? lol anon you crack me up, no oe is telling you to do any of this! Where do you get this ridiculousness from?

    10. Actually, sometimes Muslims will rent it for parties, and women rent it for their own time because like I said Muslim women cover themselves from head to toe minus face hands and feet. So going to the pool where men are is kinda an oxymoron. Muslim men and uncovered women go to pools all the time. They don’t ask for them to seperate anything. I would know, my siblings go to the pool almost daily and no one’s forced to do anything.

    11. Um…if i were oppressed would I have my own laptop? My own license? My own facebook, camera, phone, iPod, closet, credit card? Would i be my dad’s favorite? If I were oppressed would i have chosen to wear the hijab on my own, without the word of my parents? Would I have learned to read and write? Would have been allowed to take the ACT, go out on special occasions with my friends, go to the university of my choice, read college level books, hold intellectual conversations with my own dad, and work out whenever I want. Bring me the proof. Not pictures of Afghan women in burqas. I already explained the circumstances, it’s not right to force them. I know. But a majority of Muslim women choose to wear their hijab. The reason we wear it is because of modesty. Dont let the unworthy catch glimpse of our beauty.

    12. Muslims have actually been here since the 1600’s. When settlers brought in slaves from Africa, many were Muslim royalty or even regular folk. They were there even since then. Look it up, in US history before the 21st century was there account of Islamic “shariah” law being implemented on the citizens? Honor killing? We dont do honor killing. We only sacrifice lambs and cows and that’s on special occasions like the birth of a healthy baby or a marriage. Honor killings….SIGH. Again, where on Earth do you get this from? CNN? Get legitimate proof.

    13. Lord this is delicious. Did i not explain this previously? Islam (not Palestinian Arabs) do not hate Judaism. And second, if you call an Arab Muslim anti-semetic, then you’re pretty much saying we hate ourselves too. Yes, Jews are semites. But the Hebrews were part of a triplet-twin deal. The Hebrews were accompanied by both Arabs and Aramiacs, now known as Semites. Arabs are Semites. The aramaics and Jews are semites. We are Semitic because both Jews and Arabs originated from the Fertile Crescent, Mesopatamia, and together they absorbed Sumerian culture. So to say we are anti- Semetic is saying we are anti-ourselves. Lol which is wrong because I am a Semite, and I am proud.

    14. I’m glad you brought it up. The reason why women cover up because culturally, women’s bodies are more beautiful than men’s, right? We all agree. Girls are curvy and lovely. That’s why God said to cover your body as a woman (actually men are told to cover as well but the idiotos don’t listen) so men don’t look at them and start….fantasizing, of course God knows some men lower their gaze (both genders are instructed to do so, so we aren’t subject to impure thoughts during prayer or otherwise) but in general that is why women cover up. And most women love the hijab. I like it because it eliminates the need for me to do my hair, and if I have a bad hair day, I just cover. Plus it makes for a good hat in the sun. And the shawls with different prints and colors- so pretty, its like scarves around your neck, but on your head.

    And the reason we separate in prayer (some people have women pray behind men directly and some have separate rooms) is to avoid mixing and impure thoughts before, after and during prayer. God knows we are sometimes weak to desires and we have sexual impulses. If the women pray in front of a man and they bend over (in submission to God, its standard in all prayer) the men will catch glimpses of their backsides, and when your praying, God doesn’t want you thinking about Amy’s butt, he wants you to submit to him and focus on him, right? In church, or temple, would it be right if you started checking out Hannah while the sermon is going on? No it’s not. But because our prayer is both physical and verbal, we take precautions so that we don’t develop those feelings like that during prayer because that’s strictly a pure time.

    Well if you criticise Israel, aren’t you labeled anti-semetic. Again it’s such an oxymoron because here are Arabs of all religions, even pagans, and they are semites. Hebrew and arabic sound so similar because they have the same roots. (Peace upon you in arabic and Hebrew is as follows)

    A. Salam Alekum
    H. Shalom Alekhum

    and I believe any bigot remark about any religion whether or not your Muslim or jewish or Hindu is wrong. it’s not your place to judge, only God’s.

  12. And anon

    you aren’t being forced to enter mosques. And if you see a niqabi you can move if you really feel threatened. And no one is forcing you to hang around a mosque and listen to the adhan (call to prayer). No one is telling you to do anything! Just because we have certain things that we do doesn’t mean we try to physically implement it on you. I’m not telling you to embrace Islam, or even like it, I want you to understand it. Because understanding is the most important step before peace. And you want to eat pork, go ahead!

    Muslims take up literally 2% of the pop. in the US. We do what we can, we work we educate, we live. That’s the beauty of America. Freedom of religion. Maybe some of the more biased will try to deny us that right but as Americans it IS our right. In Iran, poor guys, Zoroastrians and Christians are forced into Islam. The gov is a mess and I agree it’s barbaric and thats why we come here. No matter how many bigots say we can’t. it’s our American right. God bless America, I literally mean ths from the bottom of my heart. And I really want you to understand, if your christian jewish, atheist, buddhist, whatever, I want you to know in your heart that Islam ain’t out to get NO ONE. We are chill, we are here to worship peacefully, and as we please. No one is denying you the right to go to church or w.e so be happy you don’t live in SA or whatever. Those places are in fact really bad and i’m grateful to be in a free country. That’s why muslims are here. We are free. Plain and simple.

  13. Elle, I was so intrigued and mesmerized by the gift Allah has given you to respond to such criticism and open hatred of Islam. I could never have put together what you did with such gracefulness and patience. May Allah reward you for it because I know many people will read your piece and have at least a little understanding of what Islam is really all about. Do not judge Islam by what a nation or certain individuals do, judge it on its own merit. Read its book (the Qur’an) and judge it based on the teachings in the Qur’an and the life of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (may Allah be pleased with him). He was the best example of mankind, he was pious, upheld justice and preached peace all through his lifetime. The Qur’an sepcifically states “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error’ [Al-Qur’an 2:256]

  14. I will not waste much more time on this.

    1) Anyone who tries to tell the TRUTH ABOUT islam is labelled a racist etc.

    2) Every orthodox or practicing muslim is under the control of an imam if they attend mosque. Myself, I believe what people like Erdogan says,”there is only one islam”. It is Westerners who have come up with the concept of moderate and radical islam so we could better understand the irrational behavior.

    3) If you bothered to check you would find out there are noise by-laws controlling the ringing of church bells but no rules that I know of apply to the call to prayer, even when it wakens neighbors from sleep.

    4)In NY there are muslim foot baths in public washrooms etc. in airports and universities. If you really chose to find out the truth you only have to “Google” it.

    5) I’m talking about the prayer breaks during work hours when most muslims know full well they are excused from prayers if it’s a problem and are allowed to make it up later. Oh & the special prayer rooms and in some places the special food in the cafeterias.

    6 & 7) Do some research on Toronto, Ontario school board adn you’ll find muslims excused to use the cafeteria every Friday. The boys and girls are segregated ( which goes against Western values) and menstruating females are separated yet again. We find this type of oppressive behavior toward females offensive. BTW Christian prayer, even mentioning Christmas is not allowed in these TAXPAYER funded PUBLIC schools. I’m not as familiar with schools in the US but I’m sure a little digging would turn up many inequities.

    8)Niquabs are offensive because they obscure the identity of a person. They may also obscure the gender of a person. Non-muslims are not allowed to wear balaclavas in public. That would make them look suspicious. I view niquabs etc. as oppressive to women, as muslim men marking their property and as reminders that muslims are not here to assimilate. If you dislike our culture so much, why come here? I already know that answer.

    Yes, I am being forced to accept them. I find them incredibly offensive and have no wish to see them in my country. They need to be outlawed and thankfully one by one countries are beginning to create laws to ban them.

    9) I’m only interested in halal meats. I do not condone the barbaric ritual slaughter nor do I condone eating any meat blessed by a foreign religious person in the name of a foreign god. I want a choice about what I eat and that is not being given to me. I’m being forced to follow sharia law regarding food if the meats are not labelled..

    10) I’ve heard of public pools footing the bill with taxpayer dollars for special times for muslimas or special expensive curtains to obstruct prying eyes, but I’ve never heard of muslimas renting pool time. It’s usually a demand for accommodation.

    11) When a woman is conditioned to accept a hijab or a niquab since they were very small children, are they really making a choice per se or have they been conditioned to accept it as normal?
    I do not want anyone to conceal their identity in public. This even allows them to conceal their gender and there have been many cases of males uses the niquab to commit robberies. No one should be able to conceal the face, the primary form of identification and communication in public. If you are free to wear a niquab in public then I should be free to wear a balaclava, but i’m not.

    There is much documented oppression of women in islam. It is different in certain countries and certain families.

    I’ll just list a few things. Under sharia:

    A woman’s testimony is worth half that of a man.
    To prove rape a woman must produce 4 male witnesses or be charged with adultery for which the penalty for women can be as severe as death.
    Some muslim women may not leave the house unaccompanied.
    Some muslim women must be covered head to toe by the will of her husband (not her choice) before leaving the house.
    Some muslim women, in fact many are forced into marriages too young and with relatives.
    Many muslim women are routinely genitally mutilated.
    Muslim women who are perceived to mar the family honor may be “honor” murdered by their father, brother , uncle etc.
    Muslim women pray at the back of the mosque (like the back of the bus)
    Muslim women inherit half of what males do.
    Muslim women must submit to sex on the demand of the husband.

    And on & on it goes. Far more important that laptops, cameras etc.

    12) You need to do some research. There are many cases of “honor” killing in both Canada & the US. Trying to laugh it away won’t change that. Approx. 95% of “honor” murders worldwide are committed by muslims.

    13) “The root of the root word is Semite, which refers to one of the three biblical divisions of people, each consisting of descendants of one of Noah’s sons: Shem, Ham, and Japeth. According to the tradition, Shem’s descendants are the Jews and the Arabs, though there is some overlap with the children of Ham, who also include the peoples of North Africa. Japeth’s offspring, meanwhile, populated Central Asia and Europe. (Where East Asians, South Asians, and black Africans come from is a bit muddled.)
    By this definition, anti-Semitic would refer to prejudice against all the Semitic peoples, but that would mean that Arabs hostile to Jews (and Jews hostile to Arabs) would also be described as being hostile to themselves. (Can’t we all just get along?)
    So, why do we use the term anti-Semitic to specifically describe antipathy to Jewish people, religion, and culture? In western Europe and in other countries settled primarily by people from there, most Semites they encountered were Jews, not Arabs, so the term became identified with the former.
    How, exactly? In the late nineteenth century, a German racist introduced anti-Semitism in one of his rants to refer to his philosophy of hatred of Jews, and, like many repugnant ideas, it spread widely and rapidly. (To Wilhelm Marr’s credit, he later renounced and apologized for his anti-Semitic views. But the damage had been done.)
    As a result, many people don’t realize that technically, Arabs are Semites, too. (And their languages, as well as Hebrew and others, are part of a language group called Semitic. In addition, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are collectively called the Semitic, or the Abrahamic, religions because they all derive from the same tradition.) But when it comes to racism, logic has no place. And now, even those who are not anti-Semitic in either sense of the word are stuck with a connotation that deviates from the literal meaning.
    What can we do about it? Not much. You can write “antipathy to the Jews” or some other phrase to describe what most of us understand to mean “anti-Semitism,” or you can go with the flow, as we do with many other technically incorrect usages in English.”

    Again do your research. Today I saw a video of muslims in France threatening warfare, taking up arms and out of nowhere they started yelling “Death to the Jews”. It’s always predictable, you just have to open your eyes and ears.

    14) I was talking about women having to sit at the back of the mosque or leave if they are menstruating etc. In other words I resent women being treated like second class citizens in a country that has fought so hard for equality.

    If all it takes is the mere sight of a female for a muslim man to lose control then he needs medical help.

    ******

    So now I’m a bigot? Why ? Because I dared speak the truth about islam? Because that’s what usually happens. Didn’t I already mention that? If someone dares to speak the truth about islam they are called a name, usually racist, but bigot will do.

    I have no problem with freedom of religion but I see islam as a totalitarian political ideology with perhaps 20% at best being “religion”.

    From your responses, I suspect you are a very young woman. I think you are probably intelligent but because you are messy on details, and don’t know your stuff you come across as uninformed and not believable. I have shared my time with you as a consideration in the hopes that you might learn something new. You have mocked me and ridiculed me many times during this exchange. I hope you will re-think that position the next time someone debates you. I am now finished with this interaction. Thanks for your time. And I believe you mean what you say even if you may be just a touch biased & deluded about your faith.

    ps Do your research next time. It will give you some credibility.

  15. Wearing hijab is NOT a personal choice in the Holy Qur’an. Allah asks us to wear it..to cover hair and bosom..only to be seen by one’s husband. It does not matter if she wore it to the interview or not. She could have become Muslim in the interim. So many make judgment! WE cannot judge this case at all as we were not there in any of it. Wearing hijab as a Muslim woman is in the Holy Qur’an. Just more people speaking without knowledge. The wearing of face covering is not obligatory but hijab is. I love wearing it and I know in this country of America there is no religious freedom in the workplace at all for a Muslim woman. Not at all. No religious freedom here at all. I have suffered much Islamaphobia myself..it is bad here. Please before you comment to these things..just read it and then..read our Holy Book before you say anything. It is getting so very tiresome all people say. Ani

  16. How YOU see things “Annoymous” is not important to Allah. It is how HE sees things that matters! How arrogant a statement. Ani

  17. Anon

    The truth that you “preach” is media-convinced blabber. You judge ALL Muslims, AND Islam by what corrupt people overseas do. That’s not the religion.

    I’ll explain the ones that I see as extremely off.

    1. Well here you are saying we are oppressive and so violent. I follow Islam to the teeth, or at least I try to. But I’ve never called anyone an “infidel” or “kaafir” (it means unbeliever, but God meant anyone polytheist or atheist) I’ve never threatened a church, I don’t feel oppressed by men, I actually read the Quran and i know my religion.

    2. What exactly do you mean? Because we listen to his/ her (yes there are some female sheikhas out there) sermons and pray with him? Was that wrong…ever?

    3. Well you know, I am so sorry to hear that you have to listen to a call for Muslim prayer at sunset, noon, 5 pm, and 8pm. Ya haram (poor thing).

    4. Oh the truth? The truth huh. What truth. There are foot bbaths in NY? Dear me it’s the apocalypse. We want to wash our feet before prayer. it’s standard respect for cleanliness. Is that bad, that one state, a few schools just added in foot baths? I mean your welcome to use them if you feel like your feet could use a good washing.

    5. So its wrong to go pray quickly and come back? Yeah, some people will skip their prayer and do it later (I did it all the time in Model Un, I prayed in the hotel room) but some feel like they are neglecting their prayer and since it’s for God it shouldn’t be skipped so frequently. And again, anon, how is this affecting you? personally? Is there a muslim guy literally at your neck saying GO PRAY! No, I doubt that. America is a free country isn’t it? And Islam isn’t a political ideology. SA is. But it’s a religion.. You can believe in God but live in any country and follow the rules but your belief in God remains steadfast.

    6&7. So not mixing men and women is bad? How exactly is it oppressive to women? When men stare at a woman and start thinking bad thoughts about her- that is wrong, it’s an indirect way of disrespecting the woman. And menstruating girls are just mature young ladies, it’s then sexual tension starts to rise, and that goes for boys too. That’s why they don’t mix, for that reason only. And plus, what if there’s a scum bag of a man who keeps hanging around your daughter? You know what he wants and the girl doesn’t. he thinks he’s gonna get some and he tells all his little dousche friends that he did. You’re pissed that your daughter is being so disrespected. See, now if you imagine that on a Muslim man’s mind, you thinkhe’s oppressing her. From what? We all fear for the girls safety. I’m not saying girls are forcibly told to do anything, especially when the boy has to follow the rules too.

    8. women aren’t men’s property. The Prophet’s wife Khadija wasn’t his property. In fact, SHE was the successful business woman and the Prophet worked for her. His second wife Aisha (khadija died) was not oppressed either. Concealing one’s identity is wrong? Would that mean sunglasses are wrong too? Cause the eyes are covered, that takes away from a persons identity, right? And niqabs aren’t meant for that, marking territory. Hah. I mean, SA and Afghanistan will do it to most women, but I agree forcing it IS wrong. But here in America a woman has the right to choose, and if she did marry a mean man he knows he can’t stop her. Like my mother. My father actually didn’t WANT her to wear the hijab, but she did. And some girls I know wore it before their own mothers. Imagine, girls of 15-20 years of age wore it before their mothers. And they chose to. And the niqab means veiling the face, it doesn’t mean oppress the woman. I saw a picture of a niqabi woman and her husband swimming at the beach and they were holding each other and she was in full niqab. That shows guts, not oppression. The only people who feels it is oppression is you guys. If a woman doesn’t want hijab or niqab she doesn’t wear it. there are many unveiled muslim women out there. You don’t realize it because they don’t have it on. Maybe in your own neighborhood.

    11. Again I laugh at this.A girl doesn’t even think about Hijab until she reaches puberty. Then, she can put it on if she likes. I put it on at 13, no one told me to, I just did.

    Sharia Laws

    Love that you brought this up.

    1. Te reson why her testimony is half a man’s is because she menstruates (thus unable to pray) and she misses a week or so every month. A man prays fulltime, he HAS to. While a woman gives birth and goes 40 days of no prayer, a man still prays. It’s because a women prays half the time a man does. As for being half the worth of a man, God has said “Eve didn’t come from Adam’s feet to be inferior to him. She didn’t come from his head to be superior. She came from his ribs to be equal to him.

    2. Actually that’s something the SA made up. There’s an account of a woman who waswalking to prayer and she was attacked. People came to help her and someone caught the guy who attacked her. They brought the woman, the men who helped her, and the man who raped her. The prophet promised an escort for the woman so she could be safe on her way home. there was no witness need. The prophet thanked the men who helped the woman, and Umar Bin Alkhattab (a friend of the Prophet’s and the second caliph) said, Stone the man who raped her. the prophet let the woman and the helpful men go and he said to the rapist: “Allah will punish you for an eternity in Hell if you do not repent.” And by repentance he doesn’t mean saying God forgive me, he meant getting on your knees and crying and begging god’s forgivness, and NEVER doing what you did again. Anyway, the point is she wasn’t punished, the man was. She didn’t need witnesses. Why? She didn’t do anything wrong. The SA is crazy and we all know it. In the Quran it doesnt say we need 4 to witness a rape cause that’s in most cases impossible.

    3. That’s only in SA and Afghanistan silly. Look at many Muslim women here and in places like Syria Lebanon and egypt. We leave our homes without people with us. I drive to school without anyone. My mother goes to work and other places without my father’s or brothers’ presence. How many Muslim women do you see with their friends at the mall or movies without male escorts. I tod you, the SA twisted Islam till it became nuts. In the Quran a woman may go where she pleases without someone with her, but some do take their husbands and brothers, just to feel safe.

    4. No not really. Muslim women leave their houses and they aren’t covered. Teir husbands don’t care. I told you it’s the SA governmet. I go get the mail and I’m not covered. whether or not it’s islamic is between me and god, no man has the right to force his woman to cover. Especially if she doesn’t wear the hijab at all. I see so many Muslim girls who go to Eid prayer and they aren’t covered and their male relatives are all right thtere.

    5. Actually, do research on ancient Arabic (not Islamic) culture. Marriage to cousins is common. (Two of my uncles married distant cousins.) Not uncles, fathers or brothers (ew) because that’s like incest. Also, another old Arabic culture is that a woman should marry at a young age. Not something like 8, yuck that’s so un Islamic, even the ancient Arabs had some rules against that. But when a woman hit puberty, they waited until she started to develop a figure and then she got married. But when Islam came, marrying really young for any age was like taboo. Some people stuck to their old traditional beliefs even though Islam clearly stated otherwise-No woman shall be forced to wear hijab, get married, or have children. Thank God the older generations are beginning to understand this. Like my family for example. Some of my uncles are more traditional than my father but they know for a fact my rules and my father’s rules for marriage and stuff. In my family, if the girl (or boy) flunks high school, they get married. If you pass, you go to college (yes women in my family all work and went to college). Me, I know I’m going to college first. My family told me not to get married until I turned 20, I said 23 and they didn’t protest it. Some places somewherre are very unfair and I agree it’s not right but the Quran itself does not state that a woman must be very young to get married. There is no ayah whatsoever stating it. (ex. my grandmother married at 28)

    6. I’ve heard of this happening in only Egypt. If you ask a Muslim what they think they’ll protest it. We know it’s unclean and a female circumsision is dangerous, especially if the girl is young. The prophet’s daughters and wives were never circumcised and no one tried to command them to. I think the Prophet once stated that female genital mutilation was unhealthy and very very wrong and against Islam. Unless you bring me an ayah you can’t prove otherwise.

    7. That’s an ancient cultural thing many people used to practice. Indian tradition said it was ok to disown and even kill a daughter in law that produced only girls. King Henry the 8th killed like half his wives cause they gave him girls or no kids. In Arabia girls were considered to be useless if they werent pure. But Islam abandoned that idea. Example:

    Aisha, the Prophet’s wife, was accused of adultery once when she was traveling. This rumor hurt Islam’s reputation, The prophet’s reputation, Aisha’s family, and her own. The prophet didn’t even TOUCH her. He didn’t even ask her why. Then an ayah came down clearing her name and saying that no woman should be accused of anything without clear evidence and that punishing her is wrong. There is no such thing as honor killings in the real islam, like I’ve repeated a million times, the SA and Afghanistan are infamous for that kind of thing, but the prophet dissaproved of honor killings.

    Here’s two other examples i know of. One of my friends’ cousins got pregnant. Her family was shocked but they didn’t hurt her, they didn’t even yell at her. And my own cousin was part of a scandal and she ruined the name of my uncles but they didnt do anything to her. They were unhappy with her but islam doesn’t preach honor killings. A man or woman does something wrong so they should repent. Not get killed.

    I have stated this once before you know. they pray BEHIND men, not in the back like squuished in a corner. And i told you why because the men will see their butts when they bend over. No one wants a boner during prayer, especially when you know God is watching. Sorry to sound obscure but that’s the truth.

    Women inherit 1/3 while men do 2/3. I’ll tell you why. The man uses his inheritance on his family, his siblings’ families, his house, his wife’s shopping, he has to pay for ALL of that. He is responsible of feeding and caring for his family. Not fr himself. The woman (best part) gets to use her money for anything she wants. If she is a single mom, she can use that, but the community is supposed to help her and give her money or food if she needs it.

    Yea, she gives her husband sex s he doesn’t seek it somewhere else. If she’s on her period or doing something, he HAS to wait. And let’s say she broke her hip when she cleaned the floor, if shes injured or feeling under the weather he can’t ask her for it. But like I said, she has to give him sex so he doesn’t go looking in other places. But let’s say a woman wants the sex, the man is obliged to give her it too.

    12. That’s sad. I don;t like the idea of honor killings. Islam (the QURAN, not the people) doesn’t either. No ayah tels us that honor killing is right.

    13. I do my research, but I also look at what the Quran says too. You know Muslims aren’t supposed to hate jews (and vice versa) but like i said, because of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict they’ve become confused. Many arabs just hate Jews because of what Israelis do to the Arabs in pali. The Quran says its wrong. But politics practice other things. SIGH.

    14. This is why Muslim women don’t pray in the masjid when they are on ther period. Women don’t pray at all during their period because to pray you have to be clean and obviously the period is not clean. God didn’t make it punishment or anything bad, but that’s what we beleive. Other religions usually pray verbally. We do it physically, and for that reason we do ablution and our privates have to be clean too (tmi I know but hey) And the menstruating don’t have to leave actually, they sit and wait till the prayer is over and then they go converse or whatever. i do itall the time. Lots of Muslim women do it And i told you women pray behind men for that reason.

    We’re not saying if a man sees a pretty lady he’s gonna go crazy. Some men are tempted and some one don’t notice, but its because of the tempted men we have the rules.

    Dare speak the truth? Lol. You make it seem so extreme. And I didn’t necessarily call you a bigot, but ok.

    It’s not a political ideology, actually, the rules of Islam came later, and this is the important stuff in Islam. A Hadith said that Cleanliness is half of faith. And God said His oneness is 1/3 of Islam. belief in one God is very vital. the rules aren’t important if you don’t have faith.

  18. And speaking of halal meat. Lol barbaric rituals?

    Do you know what Muslims do when they sacrifice a goat, or cow? Literally, this is all they do.

    1. Say “in the name of God, most merciful”

    2. Then swiftly slit their throat.

    That’s it. Ive seen it done before. Now the Gnostics, they had some weird rituals. To initiate someone in their Cult of Cybele they would stab a bull and make the person drink and bathe in the blood. Anon, you haven’t given me any Quranic proof of what you said. You bring me things that have hapened to people around the world, but that isn’t religion. that’s corruption. Give me FULL quranic proof, words in hadith, but you haven’t done that. You claim shariah law mandates this and that. That’s SA law. Not Islamic law. You haven’t given me full proof so I can’t take you seriously.

    And i apologize, that’s not very Islamic of me. But I think you should understand to “preach the truth” oabout islam, you should know the Quran. And know it well.

  19. kara,

    “And even if they didn’t, what they are doing is still against the law. It’s the same as not hiring a black man just because he’s black.” you’re right with it being against the law. but it is a bad law that needs to be changed. you’re wrong with your analogy. behavior vs race, really. one can choose not to wear a head scarf, one can’t choose not to be their race. well sammy sosa can but that is neither here nor there. employers should have the freedom to project an image and inforce a dress code. these laws with “reasonable accomodations” are poorly written, and too broad. so if my religion demanded that i not bath for a certain month, should my employer be forced to have me come to work stinking?

    http://www.dhushara.com/book/sakina/fatwah/purdah.htm

  20. wow, now things are getting interesting. maybe i don’t need to get my cable back. thank you elle and anonymous (you unconfident ignorant blind bastard) lol….

  21. elle,

    there have been several law suits for footbaths at airports. kansas city, phoneix, indianapolis. also, the idea that abercrombie and finch has to put a headscarf wearing sales person on the floor or that disney has to put one as a hostess is ridiculous. and a muslim woman went to court asking for a restraining order against her husband because he raped her. the husband claimed, he can’t rape his wife, he can have sex with her when he pleases. you can plow into you’re wife as you do you field, you know the verse better than me. and he brought in his iman to testify for him, and he agreed. but what was more shocking was the american judge ruled against the woman. it was over turned on appeal.

    i don’t follow, your hair is a shame to you? why don’t men cover their hair?

    wait till your at least 25 to get married. that’s when your brain is fully developed.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52687-2005Jan31.html

  22. As dear Elle has adressed all of your other points so gracefully, I’ll not beat a dead horse. I will say a bit more about the whole “unmarked halal meat” thing. I’ll start by asking where on Earth was this point brought to your notice? This was one of the more far-fetched points you’ve made.

    Halal meat is much more expensive then regular meat; anyone selling halal meat and not marking it as such and charging regular price for it is insane and is losing money. In fact the oposite is much more common (meat that is not actually halal being marked halal letting them charge more without doing more).

    The process for making meat halal is as follows:
    1) slit the chicken, lamb, cow, etc.’s throat while saying “In the name of God” in Arabic
    2) hang the dead animal upside down to drain the blood
    3) chop into steaks

    That’s it. My husband hunts and we are friends with a halal butcher and I’ve helped both my husband and the butcher’s daughter butcher meat in this manner. It costs more because of all of the extra certification it has to go through (of course not when we hunt for ourselves/friends but if we planned to sell it) and since it has to be hand done. Also most halal butchers treat the meat more humanly which also costs more. (Think of the difference between grass feed and grain feed beef.)

    And whenever I do get a Halal meal (this is very likely the same for Kosher, but since I’m not Jewish I don’t know for sure) it costs about a dollar more. And they love to advertise having halal meals because it generates more business (many observant Muslims don’t eat out or only eat vegetarian which costs less), so they wouldn’t just serve halal food and not mention it. There would be signs EVERYWHERE. They also charge more because they can. It’s hard to find and my city has two stores selling the meat and less than a dozen restaurants serving it. The demand is high and the supplies are low. You do the math.

    But you have your bone and it probably hasn’t lost it’s flavor yet so have at. Give us all the hear say you want; one day soon we will all reap our reward and I sincerely hope that you say these things from ignorance and not from any malicious intent. May Allah have mercy and forgivness for us all.

  23. Maryam alKorji,

    i don’t get halal. so is the idea is to cause the least amount of pain to the animal? if you have to slit it’s throat, what do you hunt with? do you net the animal first and then slit it’s throat? if you just wound the animal with your first shot does that make the meat haram? i read a hadith where the where hunting with dogs, and the question was if one of the dogs starts to eat the kill what does that do? don’t you think a bolt to the brain is more humane then hanging a dying animal upside down to wait for it to bleed to death? how about a blow to the back of the neck, severe the brain stem?

  24. Mike

    No that’s not why we cover our heads. Hair is a beautiful blessing. Everytime we see a person with cancer or just bald my mom and I shiver and cover our heads with our hands. We cover it because it IS beauty. Only our husbands have the right to see our bodies, and vice versa, but we have Muslim guys walking around in their little sisters’ shirts and tight jeans and that’s disgusting and very un islamic. Men must cover from the navel and down in the presence of men only, but with a mixed crowd he has to be fully dressed and his clothes should be loose and baggy, just like a womans. And men don’t have long silky hair (at least not all the time) that’s why they don;t HAVE to cover their heads like women.

    And I don’t agree with what that man did to his wife. In islam, a man should have sex with his wife when he pleases but if she’s afraid of you or if she can’t do it with you and she starts screaming(and I don’t mean THAT way) you really should stop. Just another nut job using Islam’s views to do what he wants. Misinterpretation. I’m telling you.

    Mike, do lions shoot antelope in the brains? Or do they bite into the jugular and wait to eat them? See that’s God’s message being fulfilled right there. Now we aren’t lions so we slit the throat.

  25. elle,

    now that’s just mean. “Hair is a beautiful blessing….just bald my mom and I shiver and cover our heads with our hands.” i’ve been bald for like 30 years. i used to have the most beautiful blond hair you’ve ever seen. when i was little everyone thought i was a girl because of my locks. i guess god smached me back in the day. but wait i started going bald at like 17. i was still a believer than? go figure?

    no lions don’t shoot them in the brain. nor do they always get the jugular and wait to bleed them out before they eat them. they often start to eat them alive. but we slaughter cows by putting a bolt through there brains. i hope instantly killing them, but i’m sure there are anomilies to that techquie as well.

    warning this is true nature….how tried this buffolo must be..3 lioness when is one going to take the jugular????

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxu8n2iSO58&NR=1

  26. elle,

    finally got around to reading your conversation with anonymous. first i thinbk you make some assumptions which may not be correct. you assume anon is male and american. maybe i missed it but not sure where you saw something to make you think that. first s/he says you can’t wear balklacas, however you spell that, the city on the crimerian pennisula where the war between the french and the russian/british empires over you would be the protectors of the christians within the ottoman empire. 1841 if i recall. anyways that leds me to believe s/he is not american, because i don’t kknow where in america they could pass such a law. i thought british but then the references to toronto and NY leads me to believe canadian? also i maybe wrong but judging by the retoric i would bet anon to be a hard core female feminist?

    but i see some of your answers to be quite problematic. this whole not praying as much as men because of menstration, and therefore women don’t have an equal standing with god and society (two women to one man’s testimony) isn’t going to float in the west. along with the inheritance laws. this is outdated thinking at best, sexist and discrimator at worst, well maybe oppressive at worst. so would an athiest’s (someone who does’t pray) testimony or witness not be accept in islamic law? the idea that the person who prays the most is inherantly superior to one who doesn’t is absurd, again i’ll referance al-zawahari and his prayer mark? as for fmg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation “One narration states that “a woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. Muhammad said to her, ‘Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.'”[28]Abu Dawood, who relates the narration in his collection, states the hadith is poor in authenticity.[29] Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani describes this hadith as poor in authenticity, and quotes Imam Ahmad Bayhaqi’s point of view that it is “poor, with a broken chain of transmission” “One narration states that “a woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. Muhammad said to her, ‘Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.'”[28]Abu Dawood, who relates the narration in his collection, states the hadith is poor in authenticity.[29] Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani describes this hadith as poor in authenticity, and quotes Imam Ahmad Bayhaqi’s point of view that it is “poor, with a broken chain of transmission””

    you say “It’s not a political ideology”, but i’ve heard and read many american muslims say that islam is all encompassing. it’s a guidance to every aspect of life, including political. that some things aren’t open to debate, prohibition of alcohol, inheritance laws, halal food, etc. etc.

  27. anonymous,

    do you really feel sharia is being forced on you? where do you live? london?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1377780/London-Taliban-targeting-women-gays-bid-impose-sharia-law.html

  28. Mike

    oh mike I’m sorry, that’s not what I meant. God makes people go bald, Muslims too, I meant like me and my mom fear losing our hair and we touch our heads unconsciously like we don’t want to lose it.

    I assumed he/she might of been a female but I didn’t like going in between the lines- anyway, he/she seemed American not cause of the bal….somethings cause when I said I love America and I’m american they were all “if you really love America then you and i share an unlikely piece of common ground” and they were saying that they didn’t want Islam in their country. Well excuse me African Muslims have been here since the 1600’s….ugh.

    And that’s only because it’s fair. In all aspects. Maybe to you it seems outdated and even to me some things pop out but to be a TRUE TRUE believer (don’t gotta be Muslim), and you can be one in any country you don’t have to make it YOURS… you need to believe in these things

    1. Believe in one God (no wife, parents, children, or bff to rule the universe with)

    2. Beilieve in His messengers (everyone from Adam to Mohammad, and I don’t mean worship them, just acknowledge their existence- so even Noah and Jesus and John and all the other prophets)

    3.Believe in His angels. (angels are heavenly messengers from God, right? They send God’s words down to the prophets and people)

    4. Believe in his Books, the Injeel (the Bible), the Quran, the Torah, the Zabur (the Psalms)

    5. believe in a last day.

    To be a true Muslim (besides that ^^)

    1. To answer the call of prayer-five times a day, because you’ll be busy praying so you won’t have the time to continuosly do bad deeds, plus prayer is known to cleanse you of past sins if you do it right (iqaam al salah)

    2. Giving charity to those who truly need it, muslim or not. (ita’ al zakat)

    3. Fasting Ramadan, you HAVE to know how the hungry and poor feel so you understand the blessing of food God has given you. ( sawm Ramadan)

    4. Making a pilgrimage to Mekkah to make Hajj, if they’re both financially and physically capable.. (Hajj Al Bayt wa mani istata’a alayhe sabelih)

    The reason why people say it’s so political is because each sin has a set punishment, everything has a rule. So if you gave the power to the right person (the 4 righteous caliphs) you could have a stable political state, but individually, a Muslim follows the pillars and he is ok. That’s the most important part of Islam. Faith. God makes a big deal out of his oneness and that’s Islam’s biggest concept. Monotheism. God is one. That’s why the Shehadeh consists of saying that God is one and he has no partner.

  29. ani,

    “America there is no religious freedom in the workplace at all for a Muslim woman.” strange the eeoc is bringing the suit. so what religious freedom’s of your’s have not been held up?

  30. elle,

    yeah i know the five pilliars of islam. thanks for breaking the first one down for me though. anyways you say “because you’ll be busy praying so you won’t have the time to continuosly do bad deeds,” if that’s the case god should have kept it at 50 times a day. isn’t that where it started when muhammad went to heaven. abraham kept sending him back to negotiate it down.

  31. M2

    No it was Moses, actually, but God in his wisdom knew it would be too much for the muslims and that’s why he allowed it to go down to 5, he wanted the Prophet’s humbleness and gratitude to show through though. Salah is known to keep your slate clean (erases sins daily) and thats why if you do it, it als keeps you from doing bad deeds. It cleanses you both spiritually and mentally.

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