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Muslim Woman: Hospital Mocked Her Faith

26 September 2011 General 53 Comments Email This Post Email This Post
Janice Brown

Janice Brown

Muslim Woman: Hospital Mocked Her Faith: MyFoxPHILLY.com

A Muslim woman says she was forced to leave Abington Memorial Hospital without the care she needed, after a hospital staffer insulted her religion.

Janice Brown, 25, is a convert to the Islamic faith. And she suffers from periodic hemmoroidal bleeding, dating back to the birth of her daughter.

Late Thursday night, that bleeding led brown to the emergency room at Abington Memorial.

Brown says she’d called ahead, verifying that she’d be examined by a female doctor.

As a Muslim, it would be a sin for Janice to allow a non-related man to see her uncovered genital region.

But once inside the examination room, she was greeted by a man.

“The charge nurse came in- his name was James, though he went by Jim- and he told me that Abington Hospital does not discriminate and I’m not allowed to choose a preference whether i see a male doctor or a female doctor,” says Brown.

The hospital’s own web site includes a list of patients’ rights that includes the right to medical and nursing services without discrimination based upon religion.

Janice’s sister had joined her and confronted told the charge nurse.

“‘You’re asking her to go against her beliefs and commit sins because you don’t want to find her a female doctor,” she said.

And he said, ‘I’m sure god will forgive her.'”

“I don’t know if it was more of a mocking thing coming from the charge nurse- for him to tell me, ‘oh, God’s gonna forgive you.’ You’re not the one to make that decision in my life,” says Janice Brown.

Brown says she stormed out and ultimately drove 45 minutes to another hospital, where she was treated without incident by a female physician.

She got home at 4 a.m.

“I think it’s just a form of ignorance, basically. People not knowing or not taking the time to know or educate themselves about other religions so they can be sympathetic,” said Brown.

Abington Memorial would not talk to us on camera.

In a written statement, the hospital promised a thorough investigation of Janice’s claims.

They note that care providers may be assigned by gender if the request is based on religious beliefs but that the patient may have to wait for that gender-specific doctor.

Brown says she just wants an apology.

Original post: Muslim Woman: Hospital Mocked Her Faith

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53 Comments »

  1. As someone in the medical field, I think that charge nurse is a complete idiot. Asking for a male or female doctor is a common thing, and the poor woman didn’t deserve the brush-off or callous response. If he had said “I’m very sorry but we have no female gynecologists here this evening,” then I think it wouldn’t have blown up. If I were the woman, I’d sue.

  2. If I was her I would sue too, we pay enough taxes and medical insurances to deserve such a treatment the nurse twat.

  3. If I was her I would sue too, we pay enough taxes and medical insurances to deserve such a treatment the nurse.

  4. Sulayman,

    so let me ask you this. do we now have to have a female and a male in every first responder vehicle? so if a male paramedic needs to expose an unconscious observant muslim woman’s breat to save her live and her husband says he can’t, what should happen? let her die, right? better to die than “sin”?
    looks like a pretty big hospital in philly, 60 obgyns. but what if she was in a rural town in oklahoma, say. ya’ll aren’t doing yourselves and favors with this kind of behavior.

    well at least you show some assimilation to american ways, SUE. lol

    you say you are in the medical field. another question for you. do you think the science of obstetrics and gynaecology would even exist if muslims had ruled the world for the last 100 years? do women even get any medical treatment in most islamic countries? oh shiznit not the genitals or the hair or the ears or an ankle or an elbow or a knee.

  5. Mike

    Please tell me what you know about medical treatment in Islamic countries? You just admitted that you don’t know.

    So for you to make assumptions is really bassackwards and doesn’t really pertain to the discussion at hand.

    BTW, I am an RN and my hospital is able to accomadate patients when they prefer either a male or female provider. Not everyone is comfortable seeing a woman.

  6. salim,

    so this is a tax supported hospital? you know for a fact this woman has medical insurance? same qustion to you as sulayman? oh that’s right you don’t answer questions. but that’s good thinking, let’s sue a hospital so they have less money to treat people. like the cost of health care isn’t skyrocketing enough. let’s bend all of american society to suit your troglodyte ideas. i used to think these anti-sharia guys were nuts. but since being on this website i’m starting to see their point. perhaps this is what anonymous means by sharia being forced on people, certainly on businesses.

  7. @mike there was no “First responder vehicle” this happened in the hospital examination room. The comments reported and the lack of any medically appropriate explanation for the patient is the issue. That there was no woman attending in a large hospital ER is ridiculous. Had they said, “I’m very sorry but we have no women with the training you need available and you need medical treatment now (which was probably not true) then you would have a point … but that is not the story reported. Your opinion is not based on reading and comprehending what was written in the article. Trouble yourself to form opinions in the context they appear, not your own prejudicial expectation.

  8. Mike, your comments are utterly ridiculous. Yes, it is quite common for women to request to be seen by females only. Victims of sexual assault can often be re-traumatized when subjected to unwanted touching of their bodies. This includes women like me, who are from the Christian faith tradition. By the way, all of the perpetrators of my sexual assaults were members of the church and I was also later subjected to sexual abuse by a couple of clergy from the church. If you really cared about women at all (and weren’t a raging misogynist, to boot), then you’d be on this woman’s side regardless of why she wanted a female doctor. Of course, if you’re a pervert who thinks they should be able to see and touch any woman any time you want, then it’s easy to understand why you’d object to this woman’s actions.

    Furthermore, she called ahead and they said that she could be treated by a female. So, she did her due diligence to make sure that her needs could be accommodated. The hospital failed to deliver the services that they were being paid to provide. These are services that their own policies say they believe patients have a right to expect from them.

    I understand that you don’t like the idea of people who are Muslim exercising their rights in this country, but that doesn’t make them wrong for doing so anyway. Lawsuits are among the options that citizens have for redress of wrongs. To oppose them is un-American. Of course, we both know that you don’t really like America. You just hate Muslims more.

    Perhaps you should educate yourself about health care issues before making such ignorant comments. A lawsuit wouldn’t affect how much money the hospital has to treat poor people. When sued, if a judgment is given against the hospital, their insurance company pays it. This prevents them from having cut back on services even when they have engaged in egregious wrongdoings.

    Furthermore, women in America aren’t really any better off as far as access to health care, when compared to many countries with Muslim majorities. The same health care disparities that exist overseas are also present here. In fact, there are greater gender disparities here than in many countries with Muslim majorities. Heck, Egypt has more female doctors than male. Has that ever been the case in the USA?

    Lastly, since Muslims were responsible for many medical discoveries and techniques that are still in use today, your question about whether obstetrics and gynecology would exist if “Muslims ruled the world” is just laughable.

  9. I never want a male doctor for modesty, not religious reasons, so I think it’s a common enough request.

  10. Mike,
    For your information even non Muslims women want to be checked by female doctors. Did not you see Gyms for women only? I hope this opens your eyes.
    Who is talking about Sharia here? In Islam we always try to find what can cure us without giving up the Islamic ruling however if we do not find, then we resort to the second option. So for your information, no we do not our wives die. If there are no female doctors, well then such is the situation we will check with the other doctor.
    Thanks Cynthia for clearing up the way for Mr Mike to understand that this is a female modesty thing and not just Islamic.
    This is really going Crazy about the Islamic Sharia Law taking over. Really it is not but some screwed up racists are trying to make people believe so.
    I really pray that more Americans will start reading about the sharia Law to find out that it is something they like to have in their lives and that is:
    – No Prostitution so that their children are protected
    – No Drugs so that their children are protected
    _ No alcohol so that husbands do not come home drunk beating up their wives
    – No thieving as the punishment is severe
    – No killing as the punishment is severe
    -No Gambling so that the family wealth is protected
    – No live controlled by the credit way of life and interest twister
    – Forced to Look after the poor people through Taxes
    – Wives who work do not have to spend a cent from their money to support the familly then the husband works and he has to support her
    – and If you disbelieve in Jesus Christ as a Prophet, then you are not a Muslim
    Mr Mike the list can continue. What is wrong with Sharia? do you cheat on your wife and you dont like that sharia is against it?
    I do not need an answer just find the answer to yourself.
    Good luck

  11. If she was dying of a heart attack would she refuse help from a male doctor or nurse. Or would she go against her “beliefs” if her life was truly on the line?

  12. Hera

    Actually, in Islam, if you are in need of medical assistance or if lets say your in a car crash and your hijab falls off and a male police officer tries to help you it’s fine. When I go to the hospital, we have female nurses but when a male doctor comes in, I take off the hijab and he does what he has to do. obviously if he did something unusual or inappropriate I would sue.

    BUT, as a citizen and a patient she has a right to what she asks for. If she was dying I don’t think she would care, she just wants help, but the hospital accommodates to everyone’s needs, or at least they should. They’re here to help, not judge.

  13. Salim,

    I was looking at your list about the wonderful things about sharia and I am surprised that so many Muslims don’t know all these benefits. For example prostitution is openly practiced in Pakistan including male prostitutes who dress as women.Drug use and drug dealing are common in Afghanistan. The NYT had an article recently reporting on how the credit way of life including 50% interest has lead to debtors prison in Saudi Arabia for some non-Muslims.

  14. Salim.

    Ugh. look I agree with your “defending Islam” I really do, but your wording is just…..stupid. You know Shariah law isn’t started clearly in the Quran, the laws are ( except the ones that anonymous pulled out of his/her ass) but the concept of “shariah” is wrong wrong wrong.

    And you shouldn’t exactly attack people if you think they are wrong. Think of the prophet (pbuh) is Taa’if, or Abraham against his fellow clansmen (didn’t they throw him into a fire? and he didn’t attack them) or Moses when faced with the Pharoah’s persecution of his people and his threats, or Jonah when his fellow people mocked him and Allah made the whale swallow him to show him the virtue of patience. ( and with Allah’s blessings, he lived)

  15. Mike sounds fairly ignorant about, (among other things) the concept of freedom to practice religion and of course the professional and ethical obligation of medical professionals to respect an individual’s faith and allow them a choice in how they receive medical care.

    The woman did not need a first response but in that theoretical situation what would be ethical of the EMT is the respect the wishes of the husband or woman if she was conscious and take other measures to keep her as stable as possible until she could get to a hospital and a female doctor. If she died because he couldn’t look at her breasts that would be a risk she (or her husband) should be informed of and then left allowed to make.

    What is important is maintaining her choice in the situation especially when it is possible. The nurse was callus and demeaned the woman’s faith necessarily. Not only was that no professional it went against the accord the hospital made with patients in their bill of rights. His attitude made the woman feel harassed and in turn he broke with that accord. Her faith and how it might inconvenience a medical professional is not what is at fault here, it is the moment when that nurse forgot how he was supposed to conduct himself as a professional.

    If she sues she would be in the right because the hospital said when you come here you won’t experience this and she did.

    And she does not need to assimilate to American practices if she wants to live here. Especially as we pride ourselves on being “founded” by many people who were persecuted for practicing their religion in Europe and decided that in the new country people would have the basic right to practice their faith without fear of persecution or pressure to convert. My way or the highway wasn’t an early American attitude. If people do their jobs they way they are supposed to and keep their personal bias at home to share with their friends and family, than patients, the people to whom they are supposed to serve and the people who pay their bills, would not feel threatened and in turn take legal action against them.

    Oh and here’s another little nugget of information for Mike. The Muslim Arab world is largely responsible for the great strides in science, math, and related fields westerners in Europe used as a basis for the strides we have made in the last 100 years. That gynecology and the medical field is a male dominated field is more of a reflection of a problem within our community, not a flaw on the side of Islam and how Muslims practice their faith.

  16. Elle,

    That’s the problem many people have with the phoney modesty of Islam. If a Muslim has to make a sacrifice then the rules can be bent they are only strictly enforced when non-Muslims are inconvenienced. In contrast there are Jehovahs Witnesses who have made the ultimate sacrifice in order to not take a blood transfusion that would violate their conscience.

  17. The nurse in charge ought to, at least go through diversity training or get canned for this kind of behavior. That is totally unacceptable, particularly if a non-discrimination against religious views is part of the core values of the hospital. Shameful.

  18. “Lastly, since Muslims were responsible for many medical discoveries and techniques”

    @ “bint” And what exactly were those “many” medical discoveries & techniques muslims were responsible for. List them please.

    And don’t include any made by muslim captives or dhimmis or slaves (kafirs). The reason I say this is because all Nobel Prizes given to a muslims have been because they have worked with kafirs in earning them.

  19. “obviously if he did something unusual or inappropriate I would sue.”

    That’s one thing followers of islam seem to excel at.

  20. Anonymous, you don’t need to reply to this, judging by your last comment I’m more interested in putting this into your brain than have you open up your mouth again. You said followers of Islam seem to excel at suing. What else do you want them to do when there is discrimination? Make no doubt about it, if the above report is true, then there was some discrimination going on. Instead of suing, should they bomb you? Or instead of suing or bombing you, should they have a picnic with you to resolve misunderstandings? But wait… and I’m asking you to be honest to yourself here , when was the last time you put aside your hate for even a slight moment when you think about Muslims? Muslims are not angels and they are not demons. They are humans, just like you. Some are reasonable and some are unreasonable. You are unreasonable.

  21. Ok… Because y’all brought up the example of an EMT & a muslim woman I now have to weigh in. There are a couple situations in EMS in which a unit with a female crew member will be preferentially sent to a call, 1- rape of a female, 2- patient request. These situations arise infrequently, and are usually (at least where I run) handled on a case by case basis.

    I personally have taken patients because they had a need for a female EMT, even though my partner is more qualified. Of course if there is anything EMT’s are good at it is finding creative work-around solutions.

    Also I can think of few if any conditions that would absolutely require the exposure of a woman’s breast to save a life. All the EMT’s I know would be extremely respectful of a muslim woman’s RIGHT to her modesty, and would work to provide care in a manner consistent with their patient’s beliefs and personal preferences.
    In almost all situations a patient has the absolute right to veto any examination or procedure for any reason, and while a good EMT will make efforts to educate and inform a patient of their condition and possible consequences of refusal, ultimately their patient makes the decisions, and EMS abides.

    In my professional opinion as an EMT and my opinion as a muslim woman this is a red herring and a non-issue.

  22. Anonymous

    So if a doctor raped me, like literally raped me, would it be wrong if I sued? No, I’m suing because he’s a “kafir” please. I’m sick of playing this nice girl thing.

    Oh, so when millions in Medieval Europe were dying of the black because of their unclean habits (not bashing europeans) and Ibn Sina (Avicenna- A MUSLIM) released his own book on health tips and cures of disease and the europeans learned from him, no no that was SO not a move forward in the world of science and health. You don’t do any realistic research—at ALL. You just watch videos on youtube and type in “killer Islam” on google and you pick what you see. You claim to know the Quran and Hadith, am I right? Bring me a verse that states that Islam is out to get the western world. A real piece of legitimate proof from the Quran itself that we hate everyone and that we wanna kill people. And don’t quote a corrupted Middle Eastern Leader, DONT tell me about the number of deaths a Muslim extremist group caused, I want ISLAMIC, QURANIC proof. lemme guess, NOTHING.

    I believe you’ve been thoroughly brainwashed by the media. let’s face it, they’re real good at that. So until you pick up a Quran and try to prove your theories, I’m not gonna waste time on you. Honestly I’m really sick of people like you. You think you’re so smart and righteous because you’re bashing a religion that you’ve only seen the bad side of on TV or the internet. You act like you’re sucha perfect person because you call Muslims terrorists when milliions of Muslims mourn 9/11 and for the loss of their own family members- people who worked everyday at the WTC. You think you’re a great christian/ jew/ buddhist/ hindu or w.e because you spew this insanity without written proof. Let me tell you something. Jesus, God (and Ezra), Buddha or Vishnu/Ganesh would be so disappointed in you. Because of some nutjobs in the world suddenly the Christian Americans I live next to are infidels? Suddenly my loyalty goes to a religion intended for anyone and only to that religion? I have a loyalty to God, of course. But no,Not America, the country that worked so hard for it’s freedom? The one country that allows freedom of peace and religion? The country I was born and raised in? I <3 America man and 94% of Muslims do too. Let me tell you something, the media's messed up. If you spent one day with a Muslim and read Quran instead of mocking it you'd learn a few things.

    This site is for pro-Muslims and people that want to learn about the faith. if you hate us so much go some where else. Your wasting a LOT of time here.

  23. Nice little rant Elle.

    This site is not just “pro-muslim” and you know it. It takes every opportunity or off chance of an opportunity to accuse infidels of “islamophobia”( which in reality is an “irrational” fear of islam) and relishes in each and every instance it can find or concoct..Islamophobia is an oxymoron, there is no irrational fear of islam if one has read the koran, sira & hadith and if one is aware that the peaceful meccan verses have been abrogated (superceded) by the later violent medinan verses. Any “fear” or caution about it is justified for the kafir who is mentioned many times.

    Text devoted to the Kafir (and don’t assume that is goodwill toward the kafir until you read the stats for jihad)

    Meccan koran 68%
    Medinana Koran 57%
    Total koran 64%

    Sira 81%
    Hadith 37%
    Total Trilogy 60%

    Text devoted to Jihad

    Meccan Koran 0%
    Medinan Koran 24%
    Hadith 21%
    Sira 67%

    Therefore an infidel/kafir would be wise to fear or at the very least treat islam with extreme caution. Once he/she has read the trilogy all doubt should be removed.
    *********
    “Bring me a verse that states that Islam is out to get the western world.”

    Here are but a few verses from the koran:

    A kafir is hated
    40:35 They (kafirs) who dispute the signs (koran verses) of Allah without authority having reached them are greatly hated by Allah and the believers. So Allah seals up every arrogant, disdainful heart.

    A kafir can be terrorized
    8:12 Then your lord spoke to his angels and said:” I wi;ll be with you. Give strength to the believers. I will send terror into the kafir’s hearts, cut off their heads and even the tips of their fingers”.

    A kafir can be killed.
    4:91 If they do not keep away from you or offer you peace or withdraw their hostilities, then seize them and kill them wherever they are. We give you complete authority over them.”

    A kafir is evil
    23:97 And say: Oh my lord! I seek refuge with you from the suggestions of the evil ones (kafirs). And I seek refuge with you, my lord, from their presence.”

    A kafir is cursed
    33:60 They (kafirs) will be cursed, and wherever they are found, they will be seized and murdered. It was Allah’s same practice with thise who came before them, and you will find no change in Allah’s ways”.

    And there is a huge difference between hating muslims and hating or questioning islam. Think about that the next time you accuse someone who is simply keeping it honest .

  24. Anonymous,

    Are you a Kafir? Well if you think you fall in the list, then please do something about it and you wont anymore. Us Muslims if we disbelieve in Allah the we automatically will be part of it, we are not immune.

    Elle,
    I know you did not like my previous comments, I did not attack anybody, I have just explained some of the benefits of the Islamic Law, its benefits and that is not a strange think to what Christianity teaches (other than the subject of who is Jesus/God). So again thanks for your comments and that they were Stupid.

    Hera,

    Never heard of such things happening in Pakistan, however I have never traveled to Pakistan, so bring the proof.
    Who ever in something that has 50% interest rate to pay it back? This is a amazing number please find another one.

  25. Salim,

    Here is part of a documentary about the male sex workers in Pakistan. The ones who dress up as females are called Hirja.

    http://youtu.be/m5uPqdevcc4

    The article in the NYT was about UAE however debtors prisons also exist in Saudi Arabia. A practice that does not exist in the West.

    http://www.theledger.com/article/20110820/ZNYT03/108203019

  26. It’s not one world. While a person of a particular religion is complaining of discrimination for following her beliefs, adherents of that same religion are also following their beliefs by executing those who choose otherwise ?
    RASHT, IRAN. A young pastor of Iran’s largest house church movement has told an Iranian court he will not “recant” his faith in Christ despite facing execution as early as Thursday, September 29, for abandoning Islam, church sources said. Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani was tried and found guilty of “apostasy”, or abandoning Islam, in September 2010 and sentenced to death by the court in the city of Rasht.

    It’s not one world.

  27. Oh Anonymous

    Did God name Westerners kafirs? I’m a westerner, I’m no kaafir. Do you know what kafir means? Kaafir is the exact word tha desrcibes the pagan Arabs of Mekka. A kaafir is one who disbelieves in a single God (don’t all christians and jews believe in one God?)

    And where were the pagans, the poltheists a tthe time? Many were right there in Mekka. Kaafir isn’t a word directed to a single people or country or religion. No one never ever ever mentioned the Western world as a threat until 9/11 happened, and that’ you who’s saying it. Does Islam say specifically, “Oh westerners (not kafirs) will be killed, they are this or that” NO! You people don’t even research explainations and meanings of anything! That’s how you learn… It’ the belief of a person. Atheism, polytheism. That’s what Allah hates most.

    Your little ayahs:

    1. You need to understand this, first of all. We as Muslims believe that Judaism was the first monotheistic religion and t came down that God was one, and the Torah was God’s written message to us. Then God sent down Christianity as a sort of “renewal” of Judaism to ANOTHER group of people, but not excluding the Jews. Then Islam came afterwards. So we believe that the Torah and the Bible as older parents to the Quran. So when we say “Whoever disputes the Quran (really, the message of God) is etc” we believe anyone who rejects the Torah the Bible OR the Quran because in fact, God sent them all down, s to reject any of them would be a blasphemy on God, you get me?

    2. Meaning of kaafir, already ^^. God said to the ANGELS, this will happen to them in Hell. God said for Muslims, christians and jews to have faith and stay strong throughout the ordeals the pagans put them through. The Jews had the Romans (going by olden times) the Christians had the Roman Jews (Ironic huh-Jesus was a Jew and he was killed by one..) and the muslims had the pagan arabs and later on the Persians. He’s not gonna tell his crreations to kill each other purposely for their religion. no god does that..

    3. Killed huh. So if you’re in a battle (put yourself in the mindset of a Muslim in the middle of a war and a Persian pagan is coming at you with murder on his mind and blood on his hands…what would you do? ) In Islam you can’t just kill or attack a polytheist or atheist especially if you misinterpret the Quran it’s even worse. BUT BUT if your in battle (and no one is really in that old type of war, so no one should be at each others throats) and if you’re only way out alive is to injure the attacker and move away from them, then by all means do it. If there’s no need to kill someone, why would you? Plus, murder is haram. Forbidden. No sane Muslim just decides to shoot someone because of their faith. I did say SANE, so exclude the SA, Afghan, Pakistani and Indonesian governments.

    4 and 5. God doesn’t love the pagans and the atheists and didn’t the Roman Catholic chruch go on this like…massacre of non Christians (or people who were accused of being non christian) in Europe, mostly Spain, the Muslims in Granada were persecuted because no one really realized that Islam and Christianity practically piggy-back right off each other. Anyway, God doesn’t mean they (the ones who don’t believe in God) should be killed on the spot you know, God is going to punish them Himself. There is no need to get yourself thrown into Hell too, cause that’s not ‘fulfilling god’s will” that’s just insanity.

  28. “Kafir is the actual word the koran uses for non-muslims. It is usually translated as unbeliever, but that translation is wrong.The word unbeliever is neutral. ….The attitude of the koran towards unbelievers is very negative as I demonstrated above but which you chose to ignore since you didn’t believe there were any negative passages about “Westerners AKA kafirs in the koran.

  29. HELLO Anonymous

    Ask an Arabic speaker what the meaning of Kafir is. (hello, me, and I have a few words I’d like to to thoroughly explain to you, and I didn’t ignore anything, and this is without incorporating Islam)

    Allah: Allah is the Arabic translation for English’s God. Christian Arabs use it to talk about God, so do the Farsis (Persians). muslims use it even if they don’t speak Arabic because Islam kinda started out with the Arabs.

    kafir: Non-muslims are not kufar (plural of kafir) unless they don’t believe in God, westerners in arabic is Al Gharbi, literally meaning the westerners. God doesn’t have anything against any region lol and neither does Islam. You’re calling yourself a Kafir, am i right? That means you don’t believe in God? Non-Muslim means Ghayr Muslim. Literally ‘without Islam’ So you would be Ghayr Muslim not a kafir lol Kafir is used to describe the polytheists and atheists.

    Christians: Maseehi
    Jews: yahud

    In America, lots of people are Yahud and Maseehi right? Lets say those are the only religions of America. They are how you say, “Westerners aka Kafirs” Now let’s say besides Islam, they are the only religions in the world. God in the Quran talks about them in the Quran by calling them the tahud and the maseehi.

    Now Islam doesn’t target anything, especially the west, because

    1. How many non-Muslims are there in Africa, Europe, Australia, Asia? A LOT. They aren’t kufaar, not all of them. Some are still pagans, some are poltheists (hindus) and atheists. But wait, they aren’t the west, are they? So does that mean ony Americans are kufaar? Does Islam say specifically that westerners are hated? No, only polytheists and atheists. God doesn’t love them because his oneness defines religion. Lol ya rab (oh Lord) And anyway, God sent messengers all over the world. Abraham was in what we’d now know as Baghdad. Moses in Egypt. Jesus in Palestine. Etc. Etc.

    2. Like I said, go through the Quran and look for specific words like al gharbi. You will not see it. And what makes me sad is that people believe that Islam is hiding behind “secret words” or conspiracies. te fact you think Islam is trying to hide is proof you believe the media for everything they say. That’s like a conspiracy within itself.

    Kufaar are the polytheists and the atheists. Non-believers, that’s what kafir is. An unbeliever is someone who doesn’t believe in God or a day of judgement. A non muslim on the otherhand is someone who doesn’t believe in the Quran and doesn’t do the daily prayers and stuff.

    Seriously, like calling yourself a kaafir is an insult to yourself, and to Jesus. The western world is a nice place, don’t lay an unnecessary blasphemy on it.

  30. Nice attempt to twist the meaning of kafir/kuffar which I understand all too well. An unbeliever is an unbeliever in islam not an unbeliever in god. Nice try though.

  31. Anonymous,
    You seem to be heart broken for being called a kafir, Well you are not a muslim, so yes you are a kafir (unbeliever), I do not really care about your feelings. I am an unbeliever in others religions as they are now, So be it call me an unbeliever who does not believe in what ever you believe in and I would not give a toss.

    Hera, YOu keep on about this Pakistani transvestie, who cares? We can just say that may Allah guides him before he dies. I really do not know what you are trying to say? that we all dress like women? lol.
    your IQ is Low.

  32. Anonymous,

    Nice attempt to tell Muslims what we believe. Kuffar means one who doesn’t believe in God. It does not mean a “non-muslim” in the sense that a “Muslim” translates directly to one who submits to God. The Quran clearly states that there are “submitters to God” among the Christians and the Jews.

    And Hera, your comment about “phoney modesty” is ludicrous. Islam is a religion of moderation. When the situation is a modesty vs. life scenario, God values your life more than your modesty and yes the rules can be flexed. Muslims are even allowed to conceal the fact they are Muslim if their life is in danger….. I’d think that someone like you who frequently rants about the rigid nature of my religion would see this flexibility as a good thing.

  33. anon

    you grew up with English, so you don’t know the meaning of kaafir which you don’t know well. You never grew up with Arabic, you can’t twist a whole language because you believe in something. Do you realize only places like fox and cnn will preach this. Listen, it’s like saying chair doesn’t mean chair, but a wardrobe. Its believing something made up and taught only to stir up misunderstanding.

    the opposite of kaafir is mu’min, not muslim. Mu’min means unbeliever of God. Abraham, Moses, Jesus all those guys were Mu’mins because they believed in God. They werent kufaar. The kufaar were the hellenistic Romans, the pagan arabs, the poltheists.

    I’m going to give you a sentance in arabic, since you claim to know it so well.

    Sho inta ‘aamil halak ibtifhem? Ibta’rifish shee ya sayed ‘amil halak muhtaram wa thakee wa shatir. Ikhs ali khaafook, ibtahke aref kulshi ‘an il muslimeen wal mu’mineen wa amil halak ibtifhem arabi, ghasban ‘an abook rah tifham. bas inta mabta’ref ruh id’ee li rabak ashan eysamhek. Ruh ifham, mashy mithl al deek wara hathol il hameer ili zayek, inta ‘amin feehom mush fi rabek wala Isa wala Musa. Inta shaklek mush kaafir bas ghabee.

  34. And oh yeah, do any REAL arabic speakers go on CNN and claim all the stuff you say is real? Does glenn beck know arabic? Do geller, jones know arabic? No. They hear things and they twist things until no one knows the meaning anymore. And no one gives a chance to the arabs, the christians the jews and the muslim arabs who are being honest, well excuse me for being so brutally honest: I feel you are a believer of God, so it makes you a Mu’min, sort of. Why sort of? Because you criticize and you doubt and you accuse. A Mu’mins characteristics should be better than that. What would Jesus say? I don’t see you as a kaafir because you believe in God. (Actually I’m not sure what your faith is, but if your a christian or jew your a mu’min) Kaafir….meaing westerners.

    Northern is arabic is al Shamali
    Eastern in arabic is al Sharqi
    Southern in arabic is al Ganubi
    West in arabic is Al Gharbi,
    why on earth would they all be geographical except for western? Your logic doesn’t seem to add up.

  35. not to intererupt the whole kafir debate, but….

    really i have to say this, yes i know some women are more comfortable seeing a woman doctor, especially for something of this nature.

    debbie,

    i know absolutley nothing about health care in islamic countries. u say, “Please tell me what you know about medical treatment in Islamic countries? You just admitted that you don’t know.” u confuse me? you’re claiming i’m claiming knowledge while claiming i don’t know??? but i’m easily confused sometimes. “So for you to make assumptions is really bassackwards and doesn’t really pertain to the discussion at hand.” what assumptions did i make???

    geoffrey,

    yes, i know there are no first responders in the article. really i have to explain what a hypothetical is??? yes it is a large hospital, i said they have 60 obgyns on staff. it’s 650+ beds, that’s a good size hospital. they should have been able to accomidate her request. my question is what if it’s a small hospital, say in a small rural town with only one male doctor? “Your opinion is not based on reading and comprehending what was written in the article.” what opinion did i even give? “Trouble yourself to form opinions in the context they appear, not your own prejudicial expectation.” ok boss, but do you even know what an opinion is?

    bint alshamsa,

    so i guess if you ask what should happen in a scenerio it makes you a “raging misogynist”. ok. sorry to hear you where molested and that the good ole boys (in louisianna?) are racists. yes i realize a woman probably doesn’t want a male doctor to preform her rape kit. “Of course, if you’re a pervert who thinks they should be able to see and touch any woman any time you want, then it’s easy to understand why you’d object to this woman’s actions.” really??? first where did i object to this woman’s actions? what actions? the article doesn’t say she is suing. sulayman said he would sue and salim seconded that notion. i’m not toltaly against law suits. in fact my brother-in-law, who was a d.o. and i guess therefore in your eyes a pervert because he saw female patients, died in a plane crash. my sister and her son sued the airline. i just don’t know if having your religion “mock” equates to financal damages. and i think we are getting a bit to litigous in america. “if a judgment is given against the hospital, their insurance company pays it.” you are 100% right. lol did you really just say that, while calling me ignorant??? lmfao. ridlle me this, and this isn’t a hypothetical, who pays the insurance? and so after the insurance company pays the settlement, i bet they lower their rates in your world? seriously? i know and obgyn, a male too, damn i’m surrounded by pervs how could i not be one as well. anyways he says 80% of the cost of his practice is malpractice insurance. great for eygpt. i’m sure the gulf states have excellent medical facilities for their people. “your question about whether obstetrics and gynecology would exist if “Muslims ruled the world” is just laughable.” well isn’t there a hadith saying that men should not see other men’s genitals and women shouldn’t see other women’s genitals? i don’t see how gynocology or urology could have developed under such restrictions. even if i’m wrong on that hadith, the reason i chose 100 years ago in my what if, is because women throughtout the world wheren’t very educated in the sciences at that time, so if men couldn’t study a woman’s vagina how would gynocology develop?

    b,

    thank you for understanding what a hypothetical is. so that’s a thumbs down???? let her die. good to know.

    nadria,

    “Also I can think of few if any conditions that would absolutely require the exposure of a woman’s breast to save a life.” really? the possibilities are numerous. gsw or knife would to the chest. nor does it neccesarily have to be the chest. emergency childbirth or this situation right here, rectal bleeding. can you defibulate through clothes? nor does it have to be exposure? can a male even put his hands on a female? cpr?

  36. salim,

    sup, looks like b is out musliming you. he would let his wife die, actually he did say that, sorry b. he said you can let your wife did if you chose. now that’s true religion. anyways, yeah i’ve heard of shapes gyms. lol. ya’ll kill me. so what school of jurisprudance do you subsribe? maliki?

    “This is really going Crazy about the Islamic Sharia Law taking over.” i agree it’s not taking over nor will it ever. it’s often contradictory to american ideals. “What is wrong with Sharia? do you cheat on your wife and you dont like that sharia is against it?” no i’ve never had a wife to cheat on. but i certainly don’t like the opening of the 24th surah. you ever hear of velvet underground?

    “taste the whip a love not given lightly,
    taste the whip now bleed for me”

    never would have guessed lou reed was quoting the koran, but maybe so.
    the prohibition on alcohol, not a big fan. gambling, i love it. i bet on dogs, horses, jai alai, football, basketball, baseball (hell last night at the rays game we where betting on weather or not players would get a hit, i happily lost a 10 to 1 bet on longoria hiting a homerun, three run blast, the greatest comeback in franchise history last night) i used to play poker every day man. no gambiling, really???? no wonder ya’ll can find so many guys willing to blow themselves up.

    but good to hear you wouldn’t let your wife die.

    GO RAYS, peace

  37. b,

    so does freedom of religion have no bounds? if human sacrifice is part of your religion, should we as a nation accept that. how about cannibalism?

    or how about the non-hypothetical case of the man who said he can’t technically rape his wife because according to islam she has to have sex with him? how about the sikhs winning their lawsuit allowing them to carry their little knives to school? or the sikh who wouldn’t take his turban off at the airport because he can’t expose his hair in public. what’s with you people and hair. anyways did you see the assassinated that guy in afghanistan with a turban bomb. how about christian scientist allowing their children to die.

    http://www.deism.com/harrison.htm

  38. elle,

    too bad everyone doesn’t agree with you.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hamza_al-Masri

    i saw this guy in a video say the kafir are like cattle, just grab them and take them to market to sell them or just kill them were you find them. strange how peeple can come up with such different inturpretations. but myself being kafir it was quite chilling the way he said it.

  39. elle,

    bint alshamsa (on the woman at the hospital article) has a website. maybe she would let you contribute?

  40. AAh oops, Mu’min means BELIEVER in God. my bad

  41. m2

    You misunderstood, there’s an ayah that says the kufaar (disbelievers of God-meaning non christian, non jewish, non muslim) are only worse than cattle. why? God said all animals and humans unconsciously make some kind of prayer to God. It’s humans that consciously pray and make duaa and fast and all that. Animals don’t obviously. Atheists and polytheists are worse than them because they don’t do either. They reject the idea of a god or one God. That’s why. And plus the Quran has misinterpreted plenty f times, that’s why you see people “willing to blow themselves up”. Honestly in Islam suicide and murder are both so so so wrong, and the fat that the taliban and other nuts allow it sickens me. I go to AlJazeera English, and I read about Indonesian churches being bombed, and I read about car bombs and I just cry. This isn’t my religion. Instead of bombing the church why can’t we help paint it or plant a garden with some of the church-goers, actually do something ISLAMIC instead of submitting to government-induced insanity.

  42. Elle,
    The Verse says, they have disbelieved those who say Allah is three.
    Are the Christians and Jewish believers or disbelievers? Is they are believers, then it is ok no need for Daawah. Please let me know.

  43. elle,

    so i’m not just below cattle but all animals? lol, ya’ll sound kind of like borat. what did he say, i kasastan it goes man horse dog woman. so if athiests and polythesist are lower than animals and you kill animals, then what harm is there in killing kufaar? so the guy with the hooks for hands is right?

  44. No, you should never kill another human being. We usually kill animals for food, what so now we eat people too? Hellll no. Murder of any form, for any reaosn other than self defense (and I mean like you’re literally teetering off the edge of life and the only way you can get out is to kill the other guy) because as God has said, “for your lord has made every life a precious gift”. That’s also why suicide is forbidden. We’re not saying morally theyre worse than cattle, spiritually, they are. That doesn’t mean murder can be justfied in this case. The Quraysh in pagan Mekkah were all polytheists. Did Islam say it was ok to kill them? No. Spiritually, they are lost.

    No offense.

  45. Borat is a stupid movie. So racist.

  46. And women (especially moms) are considered higher than men when it comes to respect.

    A man asked the prophet, “Who deserves the most respect after Allah and you, oh messenger of Allah?” And the Prophet answered, “Your mother.” And the guy repeated, “And then who?” And he replied, “Your mother.” and he again asked, “Then who.” And he continued to say “Your mother.” And then he said, “Then your father.”

    Kal women come after horses and dogs. UGH what hollywood can do.

  47. Elle, I guess you did not want to answer my question.

    Your comment:

    “You misunderstood, there’s an ayah that says the kufaar (disbelievers of God-meaning non christian, non jewish, non muslim) are only worse than cattle”

    Question:
    Are christians and jews seen as unbelievers in Islam or not? If they are then what is the point of Daawah?

    Your comment:
    “Instead of bombing the church why can’t we help paint it or plant a garden with some of the church-goers, actually do something ISLAMIC instead of submitting to government-induced insanity”.

    I agree Islam forbid harming a church, same as the story of the woman at the Omar (Radia Allah aanhou), how ever are we supposed to build and paint churches now to please people like m2? HELL NO. Did prophet Mohamed peace be upon him do that? Remember that if you write something and someone ignorant follow your advice, then you will be made accountable in front of Allah on judgment day. So before you put something make sure of the Islamic view on it.

  48. Elle,

    Dear sister please read from the following site, what you have said:

    “help paint it or plant a garden with some of the church-goers, actually do something ISLAMIC”

    Sorry you are not allowed.

    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/36524/church

  49. salim

    The jews of Moses’ time and the Christians of Jesus’ times. Actually, any of the them who follow the message correctly are loved by Allah. But if there are jews, muslims and christians who don’t follow the religion correctly, Allah will be angry with them. Allah sent Islam as the last “part”, the perfected version and that’s why we believe in daawah. Waraqaa, Khadijah’s cousin, was Christian but he believed in Muhammad and his prophethood. We just want to spread the message of islam. Speak the truth. Those who refuse, allah yij’aalhum, whatever.

    Wait, I’m sorry, I really tried on that m2 part but I couldn’t follow.

    Yeah, I understand that, but I meant Islamic, like kindness towards other religions, doesn’t have to be restoring their place of worship you get me now?

  50. Elle,
    We do have to be nice to them, we are human being, The prophet Mohamed peace be upon him when he went to visit the Jewish boy who was dying because of his sickness, and the prophet told him to embrace Islam, the boy looked at his father, who told him listen to abal kassim peace be upon him. he embraced Islam then died.

    So yeah we have to be nice, look after our neighbor and all. I did a little search for you please read it.

    http://islamqa.com/en/ref/44695/bad%20to%20christians

    The nation of Mohamed is not just us Muslims, Every one on this earth who came after his is part of his nation, except some believe in him and some did not, when in fact the requirement is that he is the seal of the prophets and has to be followed.

  51. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX3UHNhQ1Zk

    Something everyone should see. If you wanna understand Islam, don’t watch Glenn Beck, watch this. You’ll learn the Arab’s history, and the Muslim history. Very cool, very accurate.

  52. Hello- How about the patient. Any female patient has the right to ask for a female physician. When Jehovas witness patients refuse blood transfusion we do not make fun of their religion, we respect it. I am a physician. No one should redicule anybodies religion. Leave this to religious leaders. In the Hospital we try to provide best medical care, respecting everyones religious beliefs.
    dan

  53. Why do so many people misinterpret things when it comes to “Patients rights”?

    “The hospital’s own web site includes a list of patients’ rights that includes the right to medical and nursing services without discrimination based upon religion.”

    What this basically means is that “whatever race or religion you are, we will still care for you”. It’s not rocket science, yet so many take it and twist it into something that serves themselves. I have a few Muslim friends which I have learned a lot from. You’d be surprised to learn what really can and can’t be done, and it’s not as strict as you might think. And yes, a muslim woman CAN be seen by a man if she so chooses.

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