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Honor Killings: The Epidemic that Isn’t

29 September 2011 Loonwatch.com 46 Comments Email This Post Email This Post

Honor Killings: The Epidemic that Isn’t

My previous article describes how anti-Muslim bigots use young Muslim murder victims as props in their campaign of hate.  Sensational headlines, haunting photographs, and lurid tales of cold blooded murder are indispensable tools in their campaign to vilify Islam.   This campaign is bolstered by a set of core themes that are reinforced through tireless repetition.

Islamophobes portray honor killings as a special kind of evil that is unique to Islam, and greatly exaggerate the prevalence of these crimes.  Atlas Shrugs, Jihad Watch, and Frontpage Magazine rarely miss an opportunity use the phrase “Islamic honor killing,” which has joined “creeping sharia” and “stealth jihad” in an endless parade of misleading slogans and catchphrases.  All of these themes converge in paranoid conspiracy theories about Muslims taking over and imposing barbarism in the Western world.

Most of their arguments depend on casual acceptance and do not stand up to scrutiny.  With the help of some grade school math, relevant facts, and a healthy dose of global context, it is fairly easy to set the record straight.

The term “honor killing” was not coined by Islamophobes, even though it serves their agenda well.  Many human rights organizations track honor killings as a subcategory of homicides or femicides (killing of women).  For our purposes, that’s a good thing because it allows us to refute the idea of widespread honor killings using statistics from credible sources.

The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates there are 5,000 murders classified as honor killings each year worldwide, and they are not all perpetrated by Muslims.  To put that into perspective, consider that the World Health Organization says there are over half a million annual homicides in the world. Using basic math, we can conclude that honor killings make up less than 1% of all murders.

If 1% of the world’s Muslims perpetrated an honor crime each year, we could project at least 1 million incidents.   The number is far lower, and leaves 99.99% of the Muslim population innocent of this crime.  Why should all Muslims be indicted for the actions of a negligible minority?

Pamela Geller says, “over 90% of honor killings worldwide are Islamic,” and Robert Spencer quotes the exact figure at 91%. Chesler quotes the same estimate of 5,000 annual honor killings worldwide, but she says the true number is “much greater.” “Definitive or reliable worldwide estimates of honor killing incidence do not exist,” she concedes, yet she is somehow certain the the number is much greater. Spencer links to an article on the Middle East Forum as the source of this statistic. This is an anti-Muslim propaganda site founded by Daniel Pipes, and the articlethere is authored by Phyllis Chesler, who is yet another rabid Islamophobe.

She cites a study of the media throughout her article, which found, “there were 100 victims murdered for honor in the West, including 33 in North America and 67 in Europe.” Taking her study at face value, do you think 33 honor killings constitutes an epidemic?  Stinging insects kill more than 40 people each year in the US, which is more than the number of honor killings Chesler reported over the course of her study for all of North America.  Chesler says, “to combat the epidemic [emphasis mine] of honor killings requires understanding what makes these murders unique.”

In the US, an estimated 1200 women are killed by their spouse or partner each year.  Chesler herself states that, “In the non-immigrant West, serious domestic violence exists which includes incest, child abuse, marital rape, marital battering, marital stalking, and marital post-battering femicide.” Yet for some reason, she feels it is more important to focus on the unique nature of honor killings than to address the broader issue of violence in her own country.

To her credit, Chesler does not blame honor killings on Sharia Law, nor does she say these crimes are religiously sanctioned in Islam. Instead she resorts to blaming them on Islamic culture. The Director of Human Rights Watch says that honor killings cut across cultures and religions, and that dowry deaths and crimes of passion have a similar dynamic.

Dowry killings actually outnumber honor killings, and they are on the rise. Women with insufficient dowries are murdered or driven to suicide in what are often disguised as kitchen accidents. For this reason they are sometimes called “bride burnings.” In 2008, there were over 8,000 dowry deathsreported in India alone.

Murders for crossing caste boundaries are also similar to honor killings in that they are a cultural inheritance, victims are usually killed by their own family members, and the crimes are oftenendorsed or encouraged by village-based caste councils. The caste system is outlawed, but it remains entrenched in parts of India and Nepal, neither of which has a Muslim majority.

Honor killings also share features with other forms of femicide outside of the Middle East and South Asia.  Just a 10-15 minute drive from El Paso, Texas, USA, there is a border town in Mexico called Ciudad Juarez. Over the last two decades hundreds of women have been kidnaped, brutally raped, tortured, and murdered in Juarez, and the perpetrators remain free.  Femicides in Mexico have nearly doubled from 1,085 in 2007 to 1,926 in 2009.

There were nearly 700 murders of women in neighboring Guatemala in 2010, and 1,110 reported cases of femicide in Honduras between 2008 and 2010.  Of the cases in Honduras, only a 211 made it to court, and a mere 4.2% resulted in a conviction.

High rates of homicide and femicide also plague many countries in Sub-Saharan Africa.  In the Democratic Republic of the Congo, rape is used as a weapon of war in a systematic pattern of destruction that has claimed an estimated 2 million victims. The conflict in the Congo has resulted inmore deaths than the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Darfur (Sudan) combined.

The United Nations says, “The brutality and scale of sexual violence in the Democratic Republic of Congo almost defies imagination.” Over five million people have died in the last 10 years in what 60 Minutes described as a “War Against Women.

Imagine the photos Geller could harvest for “Islam’s Gruesome  Gallery,” featured on her website Atlas Shrugs, if only this were an Islamic country.  Since the overwhelming majority of the people in the Congo are Christians, these crimes don’t receive the spotlight on anti-Muslim hate sites.

How can anyone genuinely interested in the rights of women ignore the situation in the Congo? Even if Islamophobes could substantiate their claims that honor killings are exceptionally barbaric and unique to Islam, that would not be a justification focusing on them exclusively.

True human rights activists don’t discriminate among murder victims.  All major human rights organizations address honor killings in context, and they do not promote these crimes as a way to spread fear and hatred toward Islam.  Islam also takes a universal approach, likening the killing of one human being to the killing of the entire human race (Qur’an 5:32, 6:151, 17:33).

In her book proposal for Stop the Islamization of America, Geller described herself as, “One of America’s foremost activists for human rights and freedom.” If she were sincere, she would give up her vicious campaign against Islam and join us in the struggle to end violence against women from all cultural and religious backgrounds.

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46 Comments »

  1. One hundred years ago, the Eastern and Western cultures barely knew of each other, and of each other’s cultures. Fifty years ago, travel had exploded and we began to notice stark differences in the ways people on opposite sides of the planet solved their problems. Today we deem we have the right to sit in judgement of others in spite of the fact that we can barely keep it together. From NY to LA, from Miami to Seattle we all think we know how other people ought to conform to our lifestyle, and we aren’t shy about forcing our will on them. In spite of the fact, we senselessly murder more people on our highways than anyone is willing to admit, we drop bombs without looking back, and we have child abuse and spouse abuse numbers that ought to stagger anyone’s desire to criticize others, we spin our politics to destroy people who have done nothing to us. We imprison more people, and, even as wealthy as we are, our homeless numbers continue to grow. Somewhere someone must figure out how to let the air out of the ego that is U.S.A.

  2. I wish everyone would understand, no matter what the PEOPLE do, it’s not the religion. Something has disturbed that man/woman into doing what they did. Islam doesn’t allow honor killings, BUT some Muslim men/parents/siblings will commit the crime of murder and you know what, that is wrong, I hope they get thrown in hell, but Islam itself isn’t responsible, no matter what you people call it “shariah law” or whatever, only Middle Eastern governments practice it because they’ve become so corrupt with power. They allow anything these days, except women to drive. Stupid Saudi Arabia. ANYWAY, Ancient Arabian and southeast Asian culture still lives in the hearts of many people and they sometimes follow it. And not just Muslims, Arab Christians sometimes kill a bride if they find out she is not a virgin. (The bride and groom enter the bedroom and if the groom throws a rag covered in blood out of the window or door, that means she was a virgin, otherwise she might be killed. i guess it depends on the family and what country you’re in) But like I said, Islam doesn’t allow it. Like female infanticide in pre-islamic Saudi Arabia, men would bury their daughters out of shame, or knowing that their daughter would never have a good life in such a bad place…Islam abolished that practice. The men who had done that would go to their daughters’ graves and cry over them and beg forgiveness. Maybe it wasn’t necessarily an honor killing but it was still murder. But Islam never never ever EVER would allow something so barbaric. And I said ISLAM, not Afghanistan or the SA

  3. from the unfpa link in the article

    “Even women often view a certain amount of physical abuse as justified under certain conditions. For instance, 80 per cent of women surveyed in rural Egypt said that beatings were common and often justified, particularly if the woman refused to have sex with her partner.”

    in the honour killings section

    “On the order of clerics, an 18-year-old woman was flogged to death in Batsail, Bangladesh, for “immoral” behaviour, according to the report. In Egypt, a father paraded his daughter’s severed head through the streets shouting, “I avenged my honour.”

    The report says that “honour” killings tend to be more prevalent in, but are not limited to, countries with a majority Muslim population. It adds, however, that Islamic leaders have condemned the practice and say it has no religious basis.”

    i wonder why egyptians would think they can beat their wives? oh yeah [4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
    i wonder why egyptians would think their wives must have sex with them on command. oh [2.223] Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
    i wonder where 18 clerics got the idea to lash someone. [24.1] (This is) a chapter which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful.
    [24.2] (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.
    “Islam also takes a universal approach, likening the killing of one human being to the killing of the entire human race”, really? cherry picking alert. [5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
    [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

    putting people to death for mischief? yeah clear communications, that’s a good one. clear as mud.

  4. sorry i confused the 18 year old with the number of clerics. but something just hit me. the un says, “that Islamic leaders have condemned” aren’t clerics considered Islamic leaders?

  5. m2

    I’m glad you brought up the ayah. i researched it, and asked around, there is an explaination for it.

    IF a Muslim wife is neglecting her hubby and kids for 1. another man, 2. her own personal vanity/gain, and I mean it has to be severe neglect of course. The man comes home to a dirty house, crying and hungry children, and everything’s a mess while little miss wifey is sitting in front of the TV eating chips or in front of a mirror doing her hair and talking on the phone.And don’t say women don’t do it, many do. THEN, the man has a right t scold her because here he is paying for her food and clothes and home and there SHE is being a bad wife and mom. NOW, the translations and interpretations differ, but most scholars agree that “beating” shouldn’t be the correct term. he may hit her lightly, and I mean like a slap on the wrist type of thing, because it grabs their attention. But to “beat up” and bruise and cut is forbidden. That”s not allowed because she’s the mother of your kids and your wife.Women deserve more respect. I mean, if alcohol was banned because men might come home drunk and beat their families, don’t you think God would ban beating altogether?

    And let’s say you just can’t be with this woman anymore. You guys have tried everything from counseling to drug-stimulated sex and it hasn’t fixed anything, you get a divorce. Some guys won’t divorce their wives and some wives who want a divorce get killed or beaten. Again, sooooo forbidden. I really don’t know why men think they can get away with it, men of any religion and i’ve heard of a catholic who killed his wife to marry another lady. It’s despicable. That’s why God made beating haram. To hit lightly to a point where it’s more like a soft poke is ok but only if it’s to get them to listen. You get me?

  6. m2

    When judaism and christianity both came down, they weren’t complete (as we muslims believe) and so some rules fit and were sent down, but some things weren’t totally clear. Thats why, Allah is just quoting what happened with the jews, not what Muslims HAVE to do. That’s what the Quran does. Most of it is just stories from the past so that we may learn from them, like they’re warnings. NOT commands.

  7. Elle, are you serious with this nonsense?

    If you want to be be Muslim, fine, but quit pretending it’s something it isn’t. The Quran contains an open-ended command to men to beat their wives. The Quran says that Muhammad is “a beautiful pattern of conduct to all people”. And what did Muhammad do when his “favorite wife” disobeyed him? Why, he struck her hard enough to cause her pain (Sahih Muslim Book 4 Number 2127). And would a Muslim ever claim that Muhammad’s actions were wrong? Of course not. So according to Islam, physically assaulting women is A-OK. Again, if you want to accept that Islam is truth, that’s your decision, but be honest with yourself about it.

    And 5:33 is obviously an open-ended command to Muslims. Yes, 5:32 recounts what was said to the “children of Israel”. And then 5:33 commands Muslims to put people to death for the well-defined crimes of “waging war against God” and “making mischief”. There’s clearly nothing limiting this to a certain time or place. The Quran contains Allah’s eternal, unchangeable words, does it not? Of course it does, and since that’s the case, there’s nothing limiting about it at all. Until the end, murder, crucifixion and banishment from the land are all perfectly acceptable punishments. Well, as long as there’s always someone around to “make mischief”. Between this and the the prophet of Islam’s command to “kill anyone who changes his (Islamic) religion”, it’s no wonder they call Islam a fascist’s dream.

  8. anon

    I hate the Pakistani government. Some of the citizens still have their heads on straight, which is good. BUT, the gov and the other nutty folks have no right to terrorize people, especially their own. Islam doesn’t call for the murder of women for being raped. A muslim woman on her way to prayer was raped and the prophet condemned the rapist, not the woman! And I bet you the guys that raped her were linked to the taliban. That family was doing the right thing for their unfortunate daughter. Sick sick bastards. In this case, I’ll have to agree it’s a bad day for Islam.

    HM

    Wtf are you talking about? His first wife? The prophet never laid a hand on her…or the rest. Aisha was accused of cheating on him by several people and he never even questioned her, didn’t touch her. bring me the clear evidence, cause I don’t believe that. And when Omar tried to ban his wife from goign to prayer the prophet scolded HIM and let the woman go in peace. If you see a Muslim man assaulting his wife/daughter/sister then call the police. Sadly people do it a lot these days because of the misinterpretations of that exact ayah. Hitting a woman hard enough to even make her flinch is forbidden, I’m not exactly sure where you got that from, but… I’m not pretending anything, really I’m being serious, the actual Islam doesn’t allow that. Now Saudi Arabia, places of THAT nature, will allow it, but do you really believe that Mohammad (pbuh) would disallow a woman to drive if she (in the quran and hadith) is already allowed to own a business (and not share the profits with family-and Khadijah his 1st wife was a successful business woman with wealth to burn, get educated, and choose whomever she wants to marry? In ISLAM, not SA, it’s all allowed, its the govs we have nowadays that corrupt Islam, and oh yeah, some nutjobs like that guy “salaaM” on the Muslim republican article. That guy is wack. i think he’s Saudi.

    I being fully serious with you here. And you’re sure thats a sahih hadith? Sahih means legit, and the legit hadiths only came from people who sat drectly with the prophet.

    I read a hadith that said “If Muslim women were allowed to prostrate to anyone besides Allah, she would prostrate to her husband” So i asked my religion teacher, and a sheikh and they read it and said, it’s not a sahih hadith. Another sexist nut claiming to know the religion better than the prophet. Either way, you have to read the Quran itself to know. A sheikh told us once, “If your father/husbands ever raise a finger to you, call the police- never allow them to hurt you.” because there was a case of a Muslim man who killed his daughter after a horrible misunderstanding with internet photos, the family lived close by. The man was imprisoned and the sheikh said that to us ^^. Anyways, Idk where you got your info from, but I suggest you look elsewhere.

  9. //The prophet never laid a hand on her…or the rest. Aisha was accused of cheating on him by several people and he never even questioned her, didn’t touch her. bring me the clear evidence, cause I don’t believe that//

    Alright then. Let’s take a look at the hadith collection of Sahih Muslim. You know, the collection that is considered second in importance only to Bukhari’s. I referenced the hadith earlier, but now I’ll post it in its entirety:

    Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 2127:

    Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was ‘A’isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O ‘A’isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi’ (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

    So there we have it. Aisha disobeyed Muhammad. In response, he “struck her and caused her pain”. So the man the Quran describes as a “beautiful pattern of conduct for all people” is a wife beater.

    But maybe that was just a one-time event and totally out of character. After all, it must be awfully stressful being “Allah’s apostle”, so let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. Fortunately, we can turn to Bukhari’s collection to see how “the perfect man” responds to a woman whose Muslim husband has been beating her. Surely he’ll take the opportunity to admonish the man and convince him that wife abuse is never acceptable, right?

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:

    Narrated ‘Ikrima:

    Rifa’a divorced his wife whereupon ‘AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. ‘Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s Apostle came, ‘Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!” When ‘AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, “By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this,” holding and showing the fringe of her garment, ‘Abdur-Rahman said, “By Allah, O Allah’s Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa’a.” Allah’s Apostle said, to her, “If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa’a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you.” Then the Prophet saw two boys with ‘Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), “Are these your sons?” On that ‘AbdurRahman said, “Yes.” The Prophet said, “You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow”

    How unfortunate. Seemed like a great opportunity to tell his followers something along the lines your sheikh told you. But Muhammad didn’t seem to be too upset about the fact that her skin had turned green from the abuse or even that his “favorite wife” said that she’d never seen any women suffer as much as Muslim women.

    So I’ve noticed a clear pattern. Allah commands men to beat their wives if they fear disobedience, Muhammad beat his own wife, Muhammad didn’t care to correct one of his followers who had beaten his wife. I suppose you’ll come back with a response that alludes to the lack of authenticity of these ahadith (even though they’re from the two most reliable collections), mistranslated words, etc.

    Anyhow, your sheikh seems like an honorable man. Clearly, his position on wife abuse is the only honorable one to have. It’s unfortunate that his position has no support from Islamic theology.

  10. HM

    Correction, he hit his wife once. And the prophet has a history of doing that with men possessed with a Jinn,which is like a demon,much like satan and they say Aisha had been whispered to by satan, the blow to the chest stopped satan and Aisha realized her fear. And the man was a wife beater? He hit Aisha in the chest once to scare away satan and to scare away her fears. It’s an Arab cultural thing to be very tough. He didn’t beat her for cheating on him, even though she didn’t. He didn’t beat any wife, because beating is when you hit them constantly and cause them to bruise and cry and be afraid. And when he gave his last sermon, Muhammad told the Muslim men only to SCOLD their wives, lightly, when they did something they didn’t like. Like I said, unless the woman is really out of line to the point where your kids or you are hungry and dirty, then you can’t even poke her.

    So when that guy attacked and raped a muslim woman going to prayer, who did he condemn? The rapist, obviously! And the guy who beat his wife for not having sex. He told the woman (and we’re talking about the divorce part here) that she couldn’t get married to the other guy without having sex with him. He didn’t say it was ok for the man to beat her and he didn’t punish him physically because he knew Allah would punish him even worse then Muhammad ever could in Hell and in the grave. And when Aisha said the “believing woman” remark, who do you think she was talking about? The woman getting beaten! Wasn’t she a believer? That’s what she meant, “this believing woman has never suffered so much”. That was a warning and the plan God had revealed to Muhammad. That woman would suffer under a bad husband because she wanted her old husband back. The new hubby would be found out and verbally abused enough to stop him, for then. But what people don’t know is that we believe Allah will punish him greatly. Because realy old Arabic culture would practice beating wives and kids but that’s what Islam disapproved of. The Prophet didn’t go ‘oh yea, beat up your women, men because they aren’t the mothers or wives or sisters’ honestly, read the Quran ask a sheikh and don’t be sarcastic with me.

  11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX3UHNhQ1Zk

    Something everyone should see. If you wanna understand Islam, don’t watch Glenn Beck, watch this. You’ll learn the Arab’s history, and the Muslim history. Very cool, very accurate.

  12. //He hit Aisha in the chest once to scare away satan//

    There’s absolutely no support for your position. Read the hadith again. It’s perfectly clear what happened. Aisha did something behind Muhammad’s back. Muhammad caught her and was angry. In response, he struck her. It mentions nothing about any “jinns” or “satans”. On what grounds do you make your claim?

    // and to scare away her fears//

    He attempted to scare away her fears by hitting her? Interesting approach. I personally don’t get it, but then again, I’m not the “seal of the prophets”.

    //It’s an Arab cultural thing to be very tough//

    Yeah, and Muhammad sure was. Aisha was nine when Muhammad began a sexual relationship with her, and eighteen when he died. I’m not positive how old she was when he hit her, but she obviously wasn’t an adult. Yep, men who hit underage girls sure are tough guys.

    //Like I said, unless the woman is really out of line to the point where your kids or you are hungry and dirty, then you can’t even poke her//

    You can’t even poke her? But Muhammad, the “perfect man”, struck his wife hard enough to cause her pain. So you believe that Muhammad was wrong when he hit Aisha, correct?

    //who did he condemn? the guy who beat his wife for not having sex//

    Muhammad didn’t condemn him on any level. That’s the point. He obviously knew the man had been beating the Muslim woman, yet he didn’t take the opportunity to criticize or rebuke him in any way. Why? For reasons that have already been stated. The Quran clearly endorses spousal abuse, and Muhammad himself abused his wife. Therefore, he obviously wouldn’t have any reason to condemn the man’s behavior.

    //He didn’t say it was ok for the man to beat her and he didn’t punish him physically because he knew Allah would punish him even worse then Muhammad ever could in Hell and in the grave//

    Please provide support for this claim, as it’s not mentioned in the text.

    //And when Aisha said the “believing woman” remark, who do you think she was talking about? The woman getting beaten! Wasn’t she a believer? That’s what she meant, “this believing woman has never suffered so much”//

    No offense intended, but you either need to read it much more carefully or improve your reading comprehension skills.

    I’ll post the relevant quote again:

    “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!”

    This means that believing women (Muslims) suffer more than non-Muslim women. And why would Aisha say such a thing? From first-hand experience, obviously.

    //If you wanna understand Islam, don’t watch Glenn Beck//

    I’ve never watched or listened to Glenn Beck. I’ve learned about Islam by studying the Quran, hadith collections and biographies of Muhammad. They are eye-opening.

  13. There is no such thing called honor killing in Islam but if a person kill a female member of his familly on this basis, then be assured he has commited a murder and the blood of her soul is on his hands.
    For those slandering Muslims for anything they might find, I tell them do not come here try foul people telling them ISlam allow Murders, No it does not, those actions are done by IGNORANT Muslims with al kinds of innovations, usually who do not know anything about their religion, they only have $$$$ in their heads, all their life is about making money, they do not educate their children and when their children end up with boy friends they complain. So Dear ISlAM Haters, DO not say Muslims or ISLAM but say IGNORANT MUSLIMS, and their number is nothing.

    On the other hand we want the Vatican to give the names of all the priests who commited crimes on children, as this is just as bad as honor killing

  14. there’s a story of a Muslim boy who was possessed by a Jinn. They brought him to the prophet and they read quran on him but it hadn’t worked. So the prophet turned the boy around and slammed him hard on the back repeatedly while saying “in the name of allah,get out you enemy of God!” and then the demon came out of the body. That’s just an example of the whole force thing I was saying earlier

    But like i’ve said to many people, you have to understand the circumstances and ask a sheikh, making your own judgements without an expert’s insight usually means trouble. Like Glenn Beck and Pamela Geller. They obviously only look at certain ayahs and hadiths and don’t even think aboutt he pretenses revolving about them. I’m not a sheikha so I can’t give you a clear explaination, but I know for a fact, God wouldn’t tell a prophet or his people that its ok to regularly beat your wife/kids and “endorse it” as you say. And no, you aren’t the seal of the prophets. There is a wisdom to all things.

    Example: prophet Musa (moses) was told by God that he would seek knowledge from a man named Al-Khidr. He was a servant of God who was give the gift of al-ghayb, the unseen. He knew what regular folk did not. So Moses asked to accompany him. The man said Moses had no patience, and Moses begged to stay with him. Long story short, Al-Khidr poked holes in boat, killed a child, and fixed a falling wall/barrier of a home belonging to two orphans. The reasons?

    The holes: the boats in the area were being confiscated by a greedy king and to save the boat he put holes in it. The owners would be able to fix it. But without it they wouldn’t have any work or money or food, the king wanted good boats not holed ones

    child: the boy would grow up to be an absolute terror to his parents. Disobedient, evil, disrespectful, etc.The boy died, thus entering heaven, and the parents would have another son who was good and pure. If he let the boy live, he would never have entered heaven because of the things he would do later in life. Amazing how mercy works.

    the wall: the orphans’ father left a treasure to be found by them when they grew up and matured mentally. If the wall had fallen, the young men would find the treasure and use it for sily reasons.

    Anyway, it was in surat Al Kahf, and of course God isn’t telling us to do the same as al-khidr, mainly because we aren’t seers and chosen by God, but also because these are warnings and lessons not commands. mercy and wisdom, my friend. So anyway, ask a sheikh because I’m no expert and I might give you misinformation but you should ask. And i encourage you to read the Quran, all of it, and start from the back. The shorter ones were revealed first, the ones in the back.

  15. //there’s a story of a Muslim boy who was possessed by a Jinn//

    That’s fine. But it has nothing to do with the perfect man striking his wife. Had she been possessed by a “jinn”, that certainly would have been highly relevant to the account and therefore included. But it wasn’t, so we must conclude that there was no demonic possession involved. A straightforward reading makes it clear that he struck her out of anger and a desire to correct her behavior.

    //But like i’ve said to many people, you have to understand the circumstances and ask a sheikh, making your own judgements without an expert’s insight usually means trouble. Like Glenn Beck and Pamela Geller//

    I suppose that’s the difference between you and I. I don’t need a sheikh to tell me what something means, nor do I care to listen to the opinions of people you would label “Islamophobes”. I’m confident in my cognitive and analytical abilities, and I’d prefer not to have my opinion influenced by those whose opinions could hardly be considered objective.

    I’ve personally concluded that Islam fully condones domestic abuse because 4:34 commands men to beat their wives if they fear they might disobey them. Furthermore, Muhammad struck his own wife when he became angry at her, and the Quran makes it clear that those who desire to follow God must follow Muhammad. From my previous interactions with Muslims, I realize that a Muslim would never criticize the behavior of Muhammad. Because this is the case, I now know that a Muslim could never fully condemn the practice of wife abuse. This is one of the many reasons I’m critical of Islamic doctrine.

    //And i encourage you to read the Quran, all of it, and start from the back. The shorter ones were revealed first, the ones in the back.//

    I’m sure you think I’m an “Islamophobe”, that I’m some uneducated redneck, that the only reason I have a negative attitude towards the Islamic faith is that I’ve never studied studied it and I’m scared of something so foreign. The reality is that I’ve spent a lot of time studying the Quran and the Sunnah, and I feel very confident discussing the finer points of Islamic theology.

  16. not fear of disobeying, if they do something so severe, then he may hit her lightly and it’s the prophet and yeah I won’t question him because as a prophet he had a certain wisdom that’s beyond our comprehension. and I explained that whole ayah. No one listens.

    Not really, I don’t think you’re an islamophobe or a “redneck” because of the way you’re debating with me and hey, at least you’ve got something to show for it, not like that darned anonymous, every time I give a clear explanation to one of his/her dumb questions they don’t even answer, clearly showing their defeat, anyway…., lol just chill, I never said that, and I’m asking you to read it and try understand it the way we do. You don’t have to, though…

    And if your basing anymore conclusions off of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq or Afghanitan, forget it. we’ve established that theyre all nutjobs and if the Prophet were here he’d call them hypocrites and disbelievers and probably bring them down.

  17. And why not? I like debating, I like talking, discuss away

  18. //then he may hit her lightly//

    The problem is that there’s no way to claim that he hit her “lightly”. He hit her hard enough to cause her pain. Since Muhammad’s actions can’t be criticized, it now means that Muslim men can hit their wives hard enough to cause them pain. And you really didn’t explain the ayah. 4:34 still commands men to beat their wives if they “fear disobedience”. So not only does the verse order men to beat women, it doesn’t establish clear grounds for this punishment. It’s only if men “fear disobedience”, which is totally subjective.

    //And if your basing anymore conclusions off of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq or Afghanitan, forget it. we’ve established that theyre all nutjobs and if the Prophet were here he’d call them hypocrites and disbelievers and probably bring them down.//

    I really wish that were true. Prior to studying Islam, I wanted to believe that. It would make things simpler if it were just a matter of poverty, lack of education, or political conflicts. But it’s very clear that many of the ills of Islamic societies are directly related to Islamic theology.

    We’ve already discussed the fact that Muslims have no real way to condemn domestic abuse.

    A further problem is underage marriage. I’d like to believe that Muslims will soon move past this, but there’s simply no way. Muhammad consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was nine, so there’s no real way for a Muslim to say that it’s always unacceptable for an adult man to marry and enter into a sexual relationship with a girl as young as nine. In addition to Muhammad’s example is 65:4, which deals with marriage to girls who have yet to begin menstruation.

    So though it’d be nice to say Muslims will eventually progress past child marriage, there’s no way it’s possible without either saying that Muhammad’s conduct was wrong by today’s standards or that 65:4 no longer applies to current society. Since neither one will likely happen, it’s hard to have any optimism that child marriage will become a thing of the past in Islamic society.

    Another issue that I consider very serious is that of apostasy. I think most Westerners would agree that it’s completely unacceptable to punish someone for leaving or changing their religion. But unfortunately, a Muslim can’t say the same. And of course, this is because Muhammad said that “If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 259).

    So again, I’d like to think that Muslims could move past something as ridiculous as killing someone for following another faith, but Islamic theology isn’t on my side. Again, for a Muslim to say it’s always unacceptable to kill someone for leaving the Islamic faith he would have to say that Muhammad’s behavior is no longer correct, and as already established, that is not going to happen.

    And there’s plenty more, but that should be enough to discuss for now.

  19. Oh HM

    Salim explained the Aisha thing (marriage) but I’ll repeat it

    “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) after he married Sawdah bint Zam’ah (may Allaah be pleased with her). She – ‘Aa’ishah – was the only virgin whom he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married. And he consummated the marriage with her when she was nine years old.

    Among her virtues was the fact that the Revelation did not descend when he under one cover with any of his wives other than her. She was one of the dearest of all people to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and news of her innocence was revealed from above the seven heavens. She was one of the most knowledgeable of his wives, and one of the most knowledgeable women of the ummah as a whole. The senior companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to refer to her opinion and consult her.

    With regard to the story of her marriage, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had grieved over the death of the Mother of the Believers Khadeejah, who had supported him and stood by his side, and he called the year in which she died The Year of Sorrow. Then he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married Sawdah, who was an older woman and was not very beautiful; rather he married her to console her after her husband had died and she stayed among mushrik people. Four years later the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), and he was over fifty. Perhaps the reasons for the marriage were as follows:

    1 – He saw a dream about marrying her. It is proven in al-Bukhaari from the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “You were shown to me twice in a dream. I saw that you were wrapped in a piece of silk, and it was said, ‘This is your wife.’ I uncovered her and saw that it was you. I said, ‘If this is from Allaah then it will come to pass.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3682). As to whether this is a prophetic vision as it appears to be, or a regular dream that may be subject to interpretation, there was a difference of opinion among the scholars, as mentioned by al-Haafiz in Fath al-Baari, 9/181.

    2 – The characteristics of intelligence and smartness that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had noticed in ‘Aa’ishah even as a small child, so he wanted to marry her so that she would be more able than others to transmit reports of what he did and said. In fact, as stated above, she was a reference point for the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) with regard to their affairs and rulings.

    3 – The love of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for her father Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), and the persecution that Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) had suffered for the sake of the call of truth, which he bore with patience. He was the strongest of people in faith and the most sincere in certain faith, after the Prophets.

    It may be noted that among his wives were those who were young and old, the daughter of his sworn enemy, the daughter of his closest friend. One of them occupied herself with raising orphans, another distinguished herself from others by fasting and praying qiyaam a great deal… They represented all kinds of people, through whom the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was able to set out a way for the Muslims showing how to deal properly with all kinds of people. [See al-Seerah al-Nabawiyyah fi Daw’ al-Masaadir al-Asliyyah, p. 711].

    With regard to the issue of her being young and your being confused about that, you should note that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) grew up in a hot country, the Arabian Peninsula. Usually in hot countries adolescence comes early and people marry early. This is how the people of Arabia were until recently. Moreover, women vary greatly in their development and their physical readiness for marriage.

    If you think – may Allaah guide you – that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not marry any virgin other than ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), and that all his other wives had been previously married, this will refute the notion spread by many hostile sources, that the basic motive behind the Prophet’s marriages was physical desire and enjoyment of women, because if that was his intention he would have chosen only those who were virgins and beautiful etc.

    Such slanders against the Prophet of Mercy (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by kaafirs and others of their ilk, are indicative of their inability to find fault with the law and religion that he brought from Allaah, so they try to find ways to criticize Islam with regard to issues that are not related to sharee’ah.

    And Allaah is the Source of strength. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions”.

    Now we don’t criticize Muhammad because he was guided by God and he’s a Prophet, he usually knows what he’s doing. Now it IS unfortunate that some people think they have the same prophetic “right” as Muhammad and they go and marry their daughters at like, 13 (Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha in her earlier years is the only one allowed because f all the things Salim put ^^.

    So like i said, Muslims have been corrupted, but the Quran hasn’t, alhmadulilah. They follow the wrong Islam, they consummate marriage with young women who have so much to offer. It’s a disgrace but just because Mohammad did in fact have ONE young wife (the rest were older, widowed or/and very poor who were previously married and not exactly the most pretty)

    Islam itself doesn’t say its allowed to marry someone that young, boy or girl, at least wait for them to start physically and mentally maturing. That’s the really old arab culture people still follow today, sadly. Arab tend to discard Islam and replace ancient Arab culture with it instead. like “honor killings”. Old arab culture says it’s ok to kill yourdaughter if she’s raped and the community found out, supposedly it’s ok to kill your chi;dren if they hurt your honor. My mother knew girls who had that happen to them. Islam says that’s wrong. Only God is here to judge. If two people do something bad (not rape, just “bad) they can still pray for forgiveness and really work on their character. And If someone is raped or attacked, the attacker is to be condemned, it’s not like the lady asked for it. the reason why some people say we “need 4 witnesses” or w.e is because of the fact that some people will claim rape but really the were just being “bad”. And it’s happened A LOT, especially in this day and age. And imagine if a man consummated with a young girl who hadn’t reached menstruation. Let’s say the girl got pregnant, but wait? Isn’t it dangerous to be pregnant before your first period? That’s one reason why. Plus, girls don’t have to marry at youn ages. The prophet instructed the believing women to educate themselves and their daughters and never to let their gender bar them from doing good things for the world. You know, I’m in my late teens, and I nor my family members have not been through this, and yes, teen marriages are being condemned by even Arabs now. My own family tells me to graduate and get a job and make my own living before any of that.

    Muhammad said that, true, but wait, there’s more. Ramlah bint Abu Sufyan’s husband left Islam and fled to Abbysinia because of the Quraysh’s violence against the Muslim community. Did anyone say or do anything? The man left her with a baby and no money for God’s sakes! Nope, the Prophet knew of the man and said nothing, instead, knowing Ramlah was a strong and brave woman, married her and took care of her daughter Habeebah. And a lot of people have left islam out of fear or because they didn’t like the lifestyle of no drinking and anonymous sex, tribal feuds and giving to the poor and greed,etc. all the things plaguing the Arabian peninsula at the time. And I believe you can only condemn a convert IF they plot against Muslims and Islam and plan to hurt it. AND, it has to be apparent, obvious, like they’ve burned a Mosque down and killed people of Muslim faith, etc. Idk if this helps.

  20. Thanks for making the effort to write so much, but you didn’t address my concerns. Personally, I don’t really care that Muhammad entered into a sexual relationship with a child in the year 623. It happened 1400 years ago, times were different, etc. But the problem is that because Muhammad is regarded as the perfect man by Muslims, it’s now impossible to condemn child marriage. And since we’re now in the 21st century and reasonable people view a 50 year old man having sex with a nine year old girl as disgusting and completely unacceptable in modern society, we have an issue.

    Let’s take a look at a hypothetical:

    It’s the year 2011. Ahmad is a 54 year old man. He would like to marry a nine year old girl. Her parents have agreed to the marriage. Some within his community are critical of his behavior, believing that she’s much too young, and that such behavior is no longer acceptable. Ahmad answers their criticism by pointing to the example of Muhammad, whom all Muslims regard as a beautiful pattern of conduct. He goes further by pointing to Quran 65:4, which clearly shows that Allah is okay with men marrying girls who are so young that they have yet to begin menstruation. Since both almighty God and the perfect man clearly condone his behavior, he refuses to change his plans.

    What would you say to this man? Would you attempt to convince him that he is in the wrong? Or do you personally believe that it’s acceptable for adult men to marry 9 year old girls? Please explain.

    //And I believe you can only condemn a convert IF they plot against Muslims and Islam and plan to hurt it. AND, it has to be apparent, obvious, like they’ve burned a Mosque down and killed people of Muslim faith, etc//

    Why do you say that they have to both plot against Islam and plan to hurt it for them to be put to death? Muhammad’s words couldn’t be more clear: “If a Muslim discards his religion, then kill him”. That means it’s totally acceptable to kill people for converting to other religions, abandoning the faith, etc. I’m sure that’s why most Muslim groups are so eerily silent with regards to this Iranian pastor who will be put to death for leaving Islam to convert to the Christian faith. On what grounds could they oppose it?

    So are you okay with this? In the year 2011, do you think it’s morally acceptable for people to be put to death for leaving Islam for another faith?

    Alright, another issue in Islamic theology that appears to be at odds with modern society is that of the treatment of women. Allah says that the testimony of a woman is only half as valuable as the testimony of a man (Quran 2:282). Additionally, women are only to receive half the inheritance of male relatives (Quran 4:11), and of course, men can marry up to four women, while women don’t have the same rights (Quran 4:3). These attitudes seem terribly out of date. So as a woman, you accept that your testimony is less valid than that of a man, and that you don’t deserve to receive as much inheritance as any male relatives, and that your husband (or future husband) can marry as many as three more wives but that you don’t have the option to marry more than one man? Additionally, do you believe that such laws and attitudes are acceptable in modern society?

    I look forward to hearing your responses.

  21. HM

    I am heading to work, I willl incha Allah answer your questions tonight.

  22. hm,

    i’ve given the same hypothetical before, don’t expext an answer. oh what salim’s going to answer.

    but here’s a ruling from a grand mufti:

    http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-17/world/saudi.child.marriage_1_saudi-arabia-deeply-conservative-kingdom-top-saudi-cleric?_s=PM:WORLD

    but elle you want me to handle the light lifting? as for your 2 to 1 witnesses, that is because when women are menstruating they are unclean. not that that is a bad thing, just the way god made them. so the women can’t pray in that state and therefore women don’t stay in touch with god as much as men. was that it? the poligamy vs polyandry is so you can know the liniage of the child? the inheritance law is because men are the “protectors and maintainers” of women. they have to provide the house and food, etc. etc. the woman can keep all her money and spend it only on herself if she chooses, shoes most likely.

    elle,

    “physical readiness for marriage”. that’s one of the biggest problem with setting this example. so if a 9 or 10 year old is “physically” ready as in menstruating, does that also mean she must be mentally ready? did you open that link i sent you about the brain not being fully developed until 25? you would think god would know that? the idea that a 9 year old has the mental capacity to commit to marraige is obsurd. anyways you do know the age girls are becoming physically read is dropping in america. some blame hormones in milk, i’ve seen a theory that artifical light is causing it. and of course there is a theory about plastics. you’ve heard of biphenol A, right.

  23. M2

    I know the typical Muslim apologetics. I just think it’s interesting to hear the responses of “Americanized” Muslims who want to pretend Islam preaches equality and tolerance. Anyhow, seeing how it’s been a couple days, I suppose it doesn’t appear I’ll get to see her answer (or most likely, talk around) these difficulties, but hopefully she’ll eventually get around to it.

  24. HM

    I’m not talking around anything, not good to assume, ever. I woulda expected more, you knw? Considering I’m being respectful to you. And my laptop broke down. And we do preach tolerance.

    Those who believe and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

    AND the first muezzin, Bilal bin Rahima, was african, a slave freed for Islam.

    ANYWAY

    Honestly, like isaid, in islam, many things are just lessons we need to learn, but Muhammad marrying Aisha (listen, she entered the MARRIAGE contract with him at 9-a lot of arabs will do that to prevent future problems- and I believe she actually consummated the marriage with him at 12) So the prophet did that, right? Obviously, God didn’t create another Aisha who was so righteous and wise at a young age, that’s one reason why she got married then. And god also didn’t create another Prophet, see, the prophet did some of these things because Allah commanded him to, right? God doesn’t want men marrying little girls for some creepy reason cause its gross and obviously its for no reason other than her being a virgin, while the prophet saw the pure wise and intelligent side of Aisha before her own father.

    The women’s testimony is in fact 1/2 a man’s and it IS because of the period thing. her prayer will always be less than man’s, her fasting as well. She misses 35 pryers a week, while a man still does his. It isn’t her fault, it’s not even a bad thing for the period to come around. While the men MUST pray Friday Jumaa prayer at the Mosque, women don’t have to, and they get a break from prayer to take better care of themselves, the house, w.e.

    The polygamy- very close, but there’s this side to it as well: While a man MAY have 4 wives, he HAS HAS HAS to take care of each one just like the other, give each same amount of money, same amount of love and their own home. The prophet only married widows and old maids (except Aisha (^^)and Khadija (which was before Islam)) because they were social outcasts/they were poor and sad and lonely. He loved them all as much as he could and more. Now men, like Bin Laden, take advantage of the fact, and marry a billion women and don’t take good care of any of them except the prettiest, youngest, and probably most recent. It’s a disgrace to Islam, really. AND, Abraham had many wives, David, too, I believe. Anyway, yes, the lineage thing is important. If Layla had many husbands and she ends up pregnant, Ali is gonna say its his, and Naim will insist that it’s his, and Farid will yell at Layla for having so many men around, and Hakim will probably beat up the other guys out of jealousy and so on. Even though Layla gives birth to a baby and ends up looking like Farid in her/his later years, its going to cause trouble and jealousy. Not to say polygamy doesn’t do that, but at least the women know who the father is, and if she doesnt like it, she can 1. ask her husband to stop marrying 2. divorce him 3.talk to a sheikh who will then talk to hte hubby. Aisha was jealous of Khadija even though she’d died years ago, the Prophet called the year of her death the year of sorrow and he quoted her often. And don’t tell me now we can do tests now to reveal who the father is, and then say we can practice polyandry. Sorry, religion should never be changed, ever, for one’s gain or laziness or whatever it may be.

    and m2 is right about the inheritance. While my brother gets 2/3 of the inheritance, he HAS to use it on me, my kids and home, HIS kids, his wife, his home, and other relatives. I get to use my 1/3 for w.e the hell i like, as long as it’s not 1. porn 2. alcohol 3. pork 4. something else potentially dangerous/haram. So while my brother uses up his 2/3 and is back where he started financially, I may have used my money for something I want. he’ll have to work a little harder for that new car or w.e. See, a lot of things give ladies an advantage in Islam.

    And “apologetics that like to pretend…..” I’m really trying to contain my frustration right now. like really. My family knows I’m the only one within a 5 mile radius that does any leadership crap or religious stuff around here. When I run for student gov amongst my peers, my dad won’t say, oh because she’s a girl she can’t. In fact, my dad is letting me fly to Turkey/Spain in March. ANYWAY, just cause you don’t want a sheikh’s take on your hadiths and ayat and you won’t even listen to me when I tell you something, does NOT mean we’re wrong and your right. Sorry, buddy, doesn’t work that way.

  25. //Those who believe and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)//

    Yeah, that’s a nice verse. If only there was some level of consistency in the Quran. You know, more tolerant verses like 2:62 and not so many verses talking about how Jews are the sons of apes and pigs (5:60, 7:166), listeners to lies (5:42), how Jews and Christians will not go to Heaven but will in fact be condemned to hell (3:85), how the end of times won’t come about until Muslims have killed all the Jews (Sahih Muslim book 41, no. 6985), and how all non-believers are the vilest of animals (8:55).

    Anyway, that isn’t meant to be a personal criticism. You do seem to be a nice person, and I appreciate how polite you’ve been during our discussions.

    The reason I suggested you might talk around the issues instead of addressing them directly is because of responses such as your last one. I specifically asked you a question about apostasy. You didn’t address it. I asked you another question about child marriage. Instead of directly addressing it, you referenced some “confusion” about her actual age of consummation, when in fact there’s no doubt about it (Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3309, Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234).

    So please do respond to those issues. Let’s take apostasy. There’s a man in Iran about to be put to death for converting to another religion. Muhammad said that “If a Muslim changes his religion, kill him”. But you certainly don’t agree with that, do you? You believe that in modern society, it’s never acceptable to kill someone for converting from Islam to another faith, right? And that by today’s standards, Muhammad’s behavior was wrong, correct?

    The hadith collections of Bukhari and Muslim are considered the second and third most important books in Islam. They both tell us that Aisha was “six when the marriage contract was written, and nine when the marriage was consummated”. Do you believe that in the year 2011 it is ever acceptable for an adult man to enter into a sexual relationship with a nine year old girl? Or do you believe that by today’s standards, Muhammad’s behavior was wrong? Please explain.

    So men can have four wives, but women can’t have four husbands. There are plenty of smart, hard-working women out there. Why can’t they have more husbands, trusting they can take care of all their husbands equally? That hardly seems fair of Allah. Also, you live in America, correct? I believe that in America polygamy is currently against the law. Do you believe that Muslims in America should obey American law or the law of almighty God? Why?

    Alright, I look forward to hearing your responses. Please do address the issues of apostasy and child marriage, as I would like to know your opinions.

  26. HM

    I’m glad you brought those up, the ones against people of other faiths. In Islam (and I get this from a sheikh), we believe it was sent down to all prophets, but with different books and very general and broad aspects like God’s oneness and prophethood. Now, Musa was the first to come down with the Torah, he believed in one God, instead of the Pharoah’s self-proclaimed godliness. His people, the children of Israel, were the original “Mu’mins” the believers. BUT, they began to stray slowly, once they got to Palestine. Everyone else (romans and Arabs) were Hellenistic, and the Saduccees (a sect of the Jews) became so intertwined with Hellenism that the religion started to change. Very few people like The Pharisees and Essenes (two very religious Jewish sects) continued to beleive in the original Judaism. That’s where John, Zachariah, and Mary came from. God is angry with many of the Jews for straying as they have become like polytheists( not in the sense where they worship more than one God, but they left the true path and began to worship wrongly) , and to God a polytheist is worse than an animal. So God sent down Jesus, and the Nazarenes who believed in him as a prophet will go to Heaven. But people like Paul, who changed the message to appeal to the Romans and polytheists, will go to Hell because of what they believe. Now, I’m not saying that all modern Christians and jews will go to Hell, God has this lovely thing called mercy, and God said as long as you believe in Him and obey his message and be good, you may go to Heaven. If your a good christian, jew, or muslim you could go to heaven. BUT, you have to be good to each other! We don’t see that nowadays, do we? (israel…j.s)

    And the Muslims, in the Quran and Bible it says that nearing the day of Judgement the False Messiah will come and round up an army. The army will be full of non-believers (aka polytheists, atheists, and strayed Jews and Muslims and Christians) Only those who are on the true path (True Christians who believe like the Nazarenes and Muslims like the true Ummah) will be on the good army and then Jesus will come down and help them fight the false messiah until Jesus kills him. Yes, they say Jesus will kill him. And the reason I don’t count Jews is because I mean the ones who supported israel’s occupation of Palestine, which are many. God condemned them in the Quran for that reason, and the ones who will perish in the war will be the Zionists that caused innocent people so much pain and suffering.

    Apostasy: it’s not really a good rule to me, I read about the iranian guy, I know his story, but I think Muhammad’s rules applied to certain apostates, for certain reasons.

    Yea, I get what your saying, and true today in modern society its weird, BUT you don’t seem to get it. This is the prophet and Aisha, they had a marriage arranged by God, specifically to show Aisha’s maturity even at an early age, to show The prophet took care of her, I know you don’t believe in Islam, or that Muhammad could even be looked at within the ranks of Jesus and Abraham, but to understand you should. And because no man is the prophet or even clse to him it would be unacceptable, to me. In other countries, sadly, they think they’re allowed to because the prophet did it ONCE. Next they’re going to start preaching that they are the next prophet.

    hold on, i’ll answer your last question later.. gta go

  27. see I get what your saying, but when it comes down to it, men still are seen as the protectors of women. A man must protect his wives, and pay for them. Plus, think about it, Layla had Farid’s child, but no one knows who it’s for. Then she has 3 more, and they all belong to Hakim, let’s just say. Still no one knows who they are for, and not only that, but the fathers will never be able to fully love their children and care for them (as I said, their inheritance and work money pays for the children and wife) because they have no idea who they belong to. If layla’s son Yosef needs money for school, who does he go to? And who’s last name does he take? Do you get me now? Inshallah, I pray you do. And that shows Allah is being fair, in His divine wisdom, he knows what we can only begin to comprehend.

    AND Allah doesn’t say they should be walked on like door mats and they shouldn’t matter, on the contrary, Muslim women are seen as the cradle of life. In fact, Islam started in arms of a woman. When Muhammad got the message of islam, he freaked and ran into Khadija’s arms and he said “Khadija, I’m going crazy! I’m not a prophet! Why is this happening to me?!” And khadijah calmed him down and told him that he was the man whom Allah would never let down. She gave him the confidence to proceed and become the prophet we know now. It started in her arms. And people say it was officially lost in one’s also. he died in Aisha’s arms. And I personally believe that Islam was kind of lost when he died, because know people couldn’t get the rules directly from Allah or the prophet, it had to come from themselves, and that’s why you have the SA gov and things like that. Moving on.

    Here are some hadith’s and tafseer about women in Islam.

    The story of Khuwayla bint Tha’lab and her old husband Aws ibn as-Samit:
    (narrated by Imam Ahmad and Abu Dawud, quoted by Ibn katheer in his tafseer of the beginning of Surat al Mujaadilah)

    Khuwaylah was married to an old, short-tempered man named Aws. He came home one day and they began to argue about a particular matter and he yelled “Your are to me like the back of my mother {I’ll explain below} And he went out. He came later, and tried to have marital relations with her ad she pulled away and went to the prophet to complain. At first, the prophet was a little skeptical but then came down a revelation. Khuwaylah watched as he became overcome as he usually become when Quran was revealed to him. Then he recited
    “Allah has indeed heard the statement of the woman who pleads with you concerning her husband and carries her complaint. If any men among you divorce their wives by zihaar {again; I’ll explain below} they cannot be their mothers, none can be a mother except those who give birth. Those who do this and wish to go back to their wivesshall wish to go back on the words they uttered, free a slave before he sees her and if he is unable to do so, he should fast two months consecutively, before he sees her, and if unable to, he shall feed 60 indigent ones. This, so you may show your faith in Allah and his messenger, for those who reject him {Aws}, there is a grievous penalty.”
    (Quran 58: 1-5)

    Zihar: A pre-islamic form of divorce where the husband would call the woman his mother and according to old customs this would free the man from marital duties like paying for the kids and wife but it effectively imprisoned the woman from leaving the house, marrying someone else. Islam came and clearly abolished this cruel and oppressive practice.

    The Prophet’s wife Zaynab used to perform Nafl prayers and make them lengthy. She put up a rope between to pillars to lean on when she got tired during prayer. The prophet saw this and told her she could stop the prayer and rest instead of praying, and asked the women to do so as well if they felt very weary during prayer.

    Bilal Ibn Abdullah ibn Umar reported this from his father that the prophet said:

    “Do not deny the women their share of the mosque, if they ask for your permission {a woman should ask permission to go places like the mosque or market. If she wants to go to lets say school or parent’s house, she doesn’t need to. If he says no, she takes it to a sheikh because in Islam, the prophet said ;Let them;} Bilal said ‘By Allah, we will most certainly prevent them!’ Abduullah said ‘I tell you the prophet said to let them and you say you will prevent them?'”

    “Do not prevent your womenfolk from attending the mosques.” Fath Al-Baari, Muslim 4/161

    And Umar Bin Alkhattab’s wife used to go pray fajr and Isha with the prophet in the masjid and since Umar was a jealous man (jealous as in doesn’t liek his wife going out because he knows men will look at her) he tried to stop her but the prophet said “Do not prevent the female slaves of Allah (women, men are slaves of Allah also so don’t say anything)go to the mosques.”

  28. WAIT

    Un-believers are anyone who doesn’t believe in GOD, not the Quran and Mohammad. The un believers are called kafirs, usually polyheists and atheists. But to anonymous kafirs are westerners. Which I think is funny because the first people to be called Kafirs were the same arab pagans in Mohammad’s tribe. Were they living in the west…not really. Anyway, sorry, I just needed that rant.

  29. AND I personally know a guy who converted to Christianity from Islam soley because he like pork and alcohol. No one touched him, the sheikh around here knows but didn’t call for his death or persecution, not cause this is modern times, or America but because he didn’t do anything to harm us…at least I’m pretty sure he didn’t..

  30. why sharia is not compatible with american law

    http://www.faithinallah.org/islamic-law-natural-law-and-the-united-states-constitution/

    note the last paragraph.

  31. //Now, I’m not saying that all modern Christians and jews will go to Hell, God has this lovely thing called mercy, and God said as long as you believe in Him and obey his message and be good, you may go to Heaven. If your a good christian, jew, or muslim you could go to heaven. BUT, you have to be good to each other! We don’t see that nowadays, do we?//

    Islamic scripture makes it clear that non-Muslims will go to hell. Quran 3:85 says that no religion will ever be accepted that is not Islam, and Muhammad later confirmed that “he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire”.

    Additionally, according to the Quran, Christians are “blasphemers” (5:73) and Muslims are the strongest enemies towards Islam, and since the end of times won’t come about until Muslims have killed all the Jews, it’s safe to say that Allah really doesn’t much care for anyone who isn’t Muslim.

    Also, why do you think Allah seemed so ill-informed with regards to Christian and Jewish theology? Look at 9:30. It says that “The Jews call Ezra a son of God, and the Christians call the Christ a son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!”. What a strange thing to say. Yes, Christians consider Jesus Christ to be God, but Jews certainly don’t believe that Ezra is the son of God.

    And then for whatever reason, Allah seemed to be under the impression that Christians believe Mary is one of the three members of the Trinity (5:116). It seems odd that almighty God is so lacking in terms of knowledge about other beliefs. Why do you think Allah said such things?

    // And the reason I don’t count Jews is because I mean the ones who supported israel’s occupation of Palestine, which are many. God condemned them in the Quran for that reason, and the ones who will perish in the war will be the Zionists that caused innocent people so much pain and suffering.//

    What is with Muslims and their hatred of Israel? According to the Quran, Jews will be established in their homeland of Israel “when the promise of the hereafter comes to be fulfilled” (Quran 17:100-104). Allah said it would happen, so what’s the problem? It seems as though you’re opposing the will of your own god. Seems strange.

    //Apostasy: it’s not really a good rule to me, I read about the iranian guy, I know his story, but I think Muhammad’s rules applied to certain apostates, for certain reasons.//

    Again, Muhammad said that “If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him”. This Iranian pastor was a Muslim, then discarded his Muslim faith to convert to another religion. In response, Muslims are going to kill him. From a Muslim perspective, it’s perfectly logical and consistent. So you agree with the killing of this pastor, correct?

    //And because no man is the prophet or even clse to him it would be unacceptable, to me//

    Muhammad is a beautiful pattern of conduct. In order to please Allah, Muslims are to “Obey the Messenger” (4:80). So men want to be just like Muhammad. Clearly, Allah is fine with men marrying pre-pubescent girls (4:65). So men will go ahead and marry nine year old girls. It’s perfectly acceptable from an Islamic perspective. On what grounds do you oppose it? Muhammad had sex with a child, he’s perfect, therefore there’s no grounds for criticism of any follower of Islam who does exactly like “the perfect man” did.

    //see I get what your saying, but when it comes down to it, men still are seen as the protectors of women//

    It’s 2011. There are plenty of highly successful women out there. Some of them might want more than one husband. Why can’t Allah get with the times?

    //Here are some hadith’s and tafseer about women in Islam//

    Yep, Muhammad had great respect for women. I love the way he said that women are the majority of the members of Hell and “deficient in religion and intelligence” Sahih Bukhari Book 6 Number 301.

    I especially like the way Muhammad prevented his followers from raping his female captives. Oh, wait.

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah’s Apostle he said, “O Allah’s Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?” The Prophet said, “Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.”

    No, he really didn’t care that his followers raped their female captives. Ejaculate inside them or outside, whatever. That’s the response of “the greatest man to ever live” to his own personal followers when he found out they withdrawing prior to ejaculation when raping their female captives. What a wonderful man.

    //AND I personally know a guy who converted to Christianity from Islam soley because he like pork and alcohol. No one touched him, the sheikh around here knows but didn’t call for his death or persecution//

    Right, but he could have done so and his actions would have been fully condoned by Allah and his messenger. You would have supported the decision to put him to death, right?

  32. SIGH HM

    If you haven;t picked it up yet, God sent down Jesus and Moses and Abraham all of them, to each group of people. Allah loved them all, and their people. It was like an early Islam. That’s what we believe. So in fact, Christians and Jews can in fact go to heaven, why? They are like early Muslims, by different names. They believed in God (Allah in arabic), the prophet and the book hat came with him, and they believed in life after death. taht’s what Abraham, Jesus, Moses, and every other guy preached, right? That’s what Muslims believe, but we also believe the religion itself had been corrupted. Now, Khadija had a cuz named Warqa ibn Nawfal. He was Christian, but he accepted the prophet as a prophet to God, even though he saw Jesus as a son of God. I mean, you can see Jonah as a messenger of God, but he’s not the one you quote when something happens, Noah isn’t the one you praise in prayer. I’m not saying they are less important either. But to accept ALL prophets, their books (from the torah to the Quran), God as one, his angels, the day of resurrection, THAT is being a true believer.

    And to say that Allah himself doesn’t give a sh*t about the people he praises in the Quran and the religions he created, that is a blasphemy. Do you really even know your Islamic history?

    Allah condemns those Jews who have strayed off the path completely. They don’t even follow their religion. And we see that a lot in every relgion, but its strictly the jews here because of palestine. Yeah, he promised them a Holy Land, but that’s not Palestine, it was Heaven. But no, they took something BY FORCE that wouldn’t even last an eternity, and now look at the palestinians. Dying to live. Literally. Anyway, like isaid earlier, Jesus will come down and fight the Jews (they don’t accept him as a prophet and since the whole palestinian thing happened) with the Muslims (the GOOD believers, and it includes good Christians that accept us) the thing is, the Jews will try to expand over the middle east because they believe its all theirs (not like the Palestinian babies’ blood is enough) and they’ll reach Mecca ad thats where the fight will go down.

    “when the promise of the hereafter comes to be fulfilled” (Quran 17:100-104).

    Promise of the hereafter. Didn’t I say the promised land would be Heaven? Doesn’t that go with the hereafter, doesn’t that make sense? And God didn’t promise a piece of land that originally belonged to pagan Arabs who turned Christian and Muslim…and let Jews kill innocent people just cause Allah said it was ALL OK. And we are’t sayig jews can’t have a homeland, but why are they building on top of the bodies of Palestinians? its a crime against humanity, a genocide. And they don’t just want Palestine, they want all of the Middle East. And they’ll go after anyone. It’s greed. A test they failed.

    Not really. You can’t be like the prophet, or like Jesus can you? Their held up as prophets for a reason. I’m not saying theyare allowed to creaapy things BUT this marriage came as a one time thing to show the Ummah how Allah regarded Aisha’s faith and strength. And Aisha actaully got her period at 9. I know a girl who would sit out of prayer and I’d ask her and she’d say she was mentstruating. She was 8. It happens. To marry a girl without her period at least, now THAT’s haram. And since no gal is like Aisha with her early on wisdom and maturity, it’s true, this kinda thing should not go on. But with the death of the Prophet came the rebirth of ignorance.

    They may have sex with their female servants. Rape is haram. And don;t say that because they;re slaves we think its ok. No. Rape is rape, period. Sex, if she is willing, is allowed. Now ejaculation, he said its better not to, because of pregnancy, and some guys kinda can’t help it. If you actaully asked a guy who studied this stuff for decades, you’d get a clear answer.

    But you seem to like bombarding a teenager with questions that she has to look all over for and find an answer, and you seem to love the satisfaction you get when I don’t give you lucid and solid answers, mainly because I myself am still studying and it’s hard for me. You seem to love your self-proclaimed assurance of and superiority over Islam, over me. Very cool. Not even asking a Muslim sheikh for anything, when he knows better than you AND I. I’ve gone to rabbis when I had a question about Judaism, I’ve gone to all that stuff. I’m not afraid of the help. But no, you seem like a big, big independant man/woman. Stay in that little box of yours, sure. Have fun in there.

  33. Mike

    A lot of things we have in so-called Shariah, is things like women MUST not drive, they HAVE to wear the niqaab, when any sane Muslim knows they can whatever the Hell they like as long as they care for themselves, children, parents, hubbies, and most importantly of her religion. The original Shariah law is good and doesn’t have what the taliban are doing to the Afghanis now. (just an example, read the kite runner)

  34. HM

    If this guy decided he was going to kill my family for being Muslim and he succeeded, I believe he should be persecuted, but God knows the penalty for murder is much worse in the hereafter, IF you don’t repent day and night. And let’s face it, people don’t repent, they just beg for the things they want and when they don’t get it automatically, they turn away from God.

  35. HM

    I have some special news for you about Aisha’s “young” marriage to Mohammad.

    So you know the prophet’s daughter, Fatima? The youngest, she was born after Abu Baker’s daughter Aisha. Aisha was maybe a toddler at Fatima’s birth. So new things about Aisha are coming out, saying she married at 18, and she died after Fatima. If she’s older than Fatima, then how could she have been 18 at the prophet’s death? After all Fatima was 24. Aisha was a tad older than her. She married at 18, and people said she was getting too old to marry (another obnoxious Arab cultural thing) and at that age she married the Prophet. i get this from a Sudani man who recently came out with this study, and he’s been doing calculations and stuff, and it makes sense. She wasnt that young, not 9, see, I KNEW the prophetwouldn’t allow that. I KNEW it. And now your gonna say “sunnah says this” “Quran says that”

    First of all, ages aren’t usually recorded in either. The only reason we know Jesus’ death age and Mohammad’s revelation and death ages is because they are in the Quran. The sunnah doesn’t have much about Aisha either, mainly because not many people knew her real age. Abu baker did, as her dad, and the prophet as her hubby, and Asma as her older sister. And your thinking, well there’s a big difference between 9 and 18. They drew up the contract when she was 9, and entered it at 18, and consummated at 18. OH, and another piece of evidence regarding Aisha and it has to do with her sister Asma. (and hopefully when this info goes global, not only will it change perspectives of non-Muslims, but Muslims as well, since some engage in marrying their children at young ages)

    When the prophet (peace be upon him) and Abu Baker were fleeing Mekka from the pagans, they hid in a cave, and the only person who knew about their hiding place was Asma. Aisha was young, about 9 (hahah), and she’d leave Aisha with her relatives and she’d go every night and bring Muhammad and Abu BAker some food and water. She’d go back and forth. one day, a group of Arab men came to their door and demanded to know the prophet and abu baker’s whereabouts. When Asma and Aisha refused to answer, (I don’t remember his name, maybe it was abu Sufyan maybe it was abu lahab idk for sure) he slapped Asma across the face and called her a liar. And I don’t remember the actaul story very well considering I took it like…2 years ago, BUT, either way The prophet stayed in Medinah after fleeing Mekka for a few years before returning and Aisha had grown up by then.

    BAM. Jk I hate when people do that. But yea, the hijrah PROVES she wasn’t a child at the time of her marriage.
    Ill brb, gotta eat.

  36. //And to say that Allah himself doesn’t give a sh*t about the people he praises in the Quran and the religions he created, that is a blasphemy. Do you really even know your Islamic history?//

    The reason I posted those verses was to ask you why “Allah”, who is supposedly an all-knowing being, is so confused about such basic theological matters. 9:30 states that “Jews believe Ezra is the Son of God”. This is a bizarre thing to say. Of course Jews don’t believe that. So why would “God” say such a thing? Furthermore, Allah is under the impression that the Christian Trinity consists of the Father, Jesus and Mary. This is obviously not the case, so again, why would Allah lack such basic knowledge about Judaism and Christianity?

    So you’re mad at me for suggesting that Allah doesn’t care about non-Muslims? Yes, where might I have gotten that impression? Well, perhaps it was the way Allah said that Muslims are “the best of peoples”, while non-Muslims are “perverted transgressors” (3:110), “the vilest of animals” (88:5), and the “worst of creatures” (98:6). Or maybe it was the Islamic “Golden Rule”, which tells Muslims that they are to be “ruthless towards the unbelievers but merciful among themselves” (48:9). Or it might have had something to do with the way Allah ordered Muslims to fight non-Muslims until they were either killed, converted to Islam or accepted second class status and paid a special tax just to be able to live.

    Since you got so upset at me for suggesting Allah doesn’t care about non-Muslims, surely you’re far more upset at Allah for saying such terrible things about non-Muslims, right?

    //Not really. You can’t be like the prophet, or like Jesus can you?//

    If Allah doesn’t want Muslims to do what Muhammad did, why does the Quran say that “In Muhammad, all people have a beautiful pattern of conduct” (33:21) and that “We have sent (Muhammad) as a Messenger to (instruct) mankind. And enough is Allah for a witness. He who obeys the Messenger obeys Allah.”

    In other words, do exactly like Muhammad did, and you’ll do okay. Since Muslims are given no guarantee into Heaven, this is their best bet, correct? Well, pardon me. They are guaranteed a spot in Heaven if they “slay or are slain in the name of Allah” (Quran 9:111). But outside of killing people or being killed for Allah, there’s no guaranteed spot in Heaven, so Muslims have to emulate the “prophet” and hope for the best.

    //BUT this marriage came as a one time thing to show the Ummah how Allah regarded Aisha’s faith and strength//

    Are you saying that Allah tested the faith of a nine year old girl by having her enter into a sexual relationship with a man old enough to be her grandfather? Tough god.

    //To marry a girl without her period at least, now THAT’s haram//

    65:4 makes it perfectly clear that Allah not only approves of marriage with pre-pubescent girls, he’s fine with divorcing them as well. So if Allah approves of it, why do you say it’s wrong? Are you smarter than Allah? And that’s not even to mention the fact that Muhammad married Aisha when she was six, though he was enough of a “gentleman” to wait till she was nine to have sex with her.

    //They may have sex with their female servants. Rape is haram//

    Oh, right. I’m sure women that were taken as captives in war were thrilled to have sex with these men. Kind of like how after Muhammad had the entire Banu Qurayza tribe brutally murdered, he “married” the most beautiful woman in the tribe and consummated the marriage that very night. I’m sure having sex with the man who had just murdered every male in her tribe was exactly what she wanted to do.

    //If this guy decided he was going to kill my family for being Muslim and he succeeded, I believe he should be persecuted//

    I assume you either misread or misunderstood my question, but it was in reference to the apostasy of the former Muslim you mentioned. I was asking if you would have gone along with the decision to put him to death if those in your mosque had decided to kill him. Seeing how the perfect man did that very thing, surely you would have, yes?

    And I find it telling that you didn’t mention the Iranian man about to be put to death. I believe it was you who seemed quite upset when Awlaki was killed. So a Muslim calls for the deaths of American civilians and actively works with those who attempted (and succeeded) in murdering Americans. In response, he is killed. You feel angry about this. An Iranian man who has done nothing wrong is going to be put to death simply for changing religions. You don’t seem to care. Why is that?

    //I have some special news for you about Aisha’s “young” marriage to Mohammad.//

    Ah yes, the impressive Muslim ability to delude oneself into believing anything that presents the “Prophet” in a more positive light.

    So the hadith collections of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are thought to be the second and third most important books in Islamic theology. They both state that Aisha was nine when Muhammad started having sex with her. None of the other “reliable” collections of hadith contradict this.

    Furthermore, Muslim reports that she brought her dolls with her when she was taken as a bride by Muhammad (Sahih Muslim Book 8 Number 3311. How many 18 year olds do you know who still play with dolls? Not many. That sounds a lot more like something a child would do.

    Speaking of, why do you think Allah takes such great interest in Muhammad’s sex life? If Islam is true, then Muhammad was the most important man to ever live. His mission was to tell the world how to please almighty God and serve him till the end. And yet, Allah seems to have a great interest in making sure Muhammad is sexually pleased.

    33:50 seems a bit out of place in a book that was supposed to be a guide to mankind for the rest of time.

    “O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her– specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; ”

    Well, thank goodness Allah took time out to tell us that Muhammad was free to have sex with pretty much any woman he desired, but that not everybody could. That really helps clear things up.

    And 33:37 seems a little out of place as well.

    “But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah’s command shall be performed.”

    Seems a little odd. How could making it clear that Muhammad was free to marry Zaynab make any difference in the lives of future believers? And who was Zaynab anyway? Well, Muhammad’s daughter in law. And apparently that was strange even back in 7th century Arabia. I suppose that’s why it was so important for Allah to clear that up. Must have been nice for Muhammad to have a god who would give him approval for most anything he wanted to do.

  37. Now, I’m very tired of explaining and tired of the same damn response over and over again because no matter what, your opinion will never change. Why? You refuse to see Islam as a whole and the message it proclaims. You know that ayah “kill hem al….blah blah” You’ve probably seen it floating around cyberspace. What’s funny is that the ayah was distinctly revealed early when the Quraysh declared war on the early Medinah Muslims. They were coming, and the ayah prved as a warning. Get ready to fight. Kill them IF you must. If you die, you die a martyr. No one ever looks at the pretenses these ayahs were revealed in, you know…Tafseer? And when the Muslims attacked a Jewish man in the city and the prophet made them stop and told them to apologize and help him with his things….or maybe when the muslims faced prosecution in Mekka, the prophet sent them to Abyssinia, ruled by a good-hearted Christian king called “Al-Najashi” and the Prophet TOLD them that he would care for them because of the similarity of faiths, because he was a good Christian man, because of all those things. You still don’t get it. When we see non-Muslims (not non-believers thats all different) we should still wish peace on them, still treat them with respect and kindness. The prophet did. The ayahs, I’d suggest discussing it with someone with more knowledge than I because I’m not a sheikha. I’m not saying ask A sheikh, discuss it why don’t you. It’ll do you a world of good. Nothing in the Quran just comes out of nowhere. Everything has reason, an explaination, everything.

    Sexuality. 1. That is SO disrespectful. I mean, you may not like him, you may not believe in him, but you do not see me mocking Jesus or Moses and Abraham…or even Buddha or Vishnu, whatver it is you believe. That’s very low.
    2. What you missed there buddy is the fact that sex can only be had with wives and female saves. Now they can’t be raped. And you say “Oh women are enslaved and raped in war.” When the Muslims won a battle, they took the money and gave it to the poor. Animals became food and livestock for the people. if a city or land is won over in a war it becomes part of the winner’s take. The citizens don’t have to become Muslim, but they still follow rules. The women (IF she was unmarried or widowed) would become a potential wife or servant to any man who wishes to marry her. Although, you’d still have to respect her wishes. She’s engaged to another, ok go marry that guy it’s all good. She’s unwilling to marry or have sex, ok, you become a PAID servant. You’d still give the ladies a chance to make a decision. Now you say slaves like oh beaten slaves chained slaves always treated badly slaves. Now think about it. We call ourselves slaves of God. God doesn’t treat us like crap. He created us, and he tests us sure but he’s ourLord. We are merely his servants. As is the servants Muslims and even people of other faiths had. And the servants the prophet had were all male, most I believe. He treated them with respect and dignity and if they were tired or sick, they were let off. And the Prophet was mainly a very poor man, he didn’t have money to pay for slaves. They came to him and said we wil work for you. We will help you. We’re wiling. So they became his servants and helped clean his house and cook and take care of his clothes.

    3. The cousins and sex thing. If you haven’t guessed it, Muslims may only have sex with wives and servants, right? If you marry a cousin (and some arabs and Muslims do) you can have sex withthem. Marriage allows that. And I just asked a sheikh I know about this. Sometimes when allah tells the prophet to do something, he means that others may be allowed the same (except the last part when a woman wants to marry him) The prophet never had sex with a slave though, only his wives Khadijah and Aisha. He consummated his marriage with the 11 women but they never did anything beyond that. He consummated the marriages to makew them official and what not. god told him “As a Muslim, it’s ok for you to do such and such and such”

    4. Yes, I have my story right here about Zaynab. Now, you know when people adopt, they try to make them a part pf your family by giving them the last name, passing them off to some as blood relatives, and you know its ok to adopt in Islam. Zaid was the prophet’s adopted son, and in Islam, you never look a tthe adopted as a blood relative. Not to exclude them and say “Oh you don’t belong” but to show the difference between the two. Now Zaid wasn’t the prophet’s real son, and Allah told Muhammad to marry Zaynab who was his cousin, to Zaid. Zaynab hated Zaid, its not said why, but she didn’t like him. The prophet said, “Allah told me to do this, marry him and smething good, better, will come.” Then, to prove that adoption does not make you obliged as a blood relative(preforming that which blood relatives do like last names and inheritcance and stuff) to the adopted, he married Zaynab, BUT, Zaynab still hated Zaid so she divorced him, and THAT’s when the prophet married her. Didn;t we say Muslim women don’t have more than one husband. Did we not discuss that?

    Kal, oh Muhammad is a sex craving lying nut. That’ funny because he only procreated with 2 women in his lifetime (and the first was a widow who died, and the other was young true but God gave her the wisdom) when the Quraysh begged him to stop by trying to bribe him with women. What did he say? No. Nt because Islam allows his all the sex in the world, there was more astrictness on the prophet than anyone else. The only sin he ever committed was abasa, and that’s why I’m not continuing this little ordeal here.

    Aisha with her dolls. Ok, so she might not have been 18, but still older than 9 by a few years. If you really think about it, she WAS older than Fatima and she was 24 at his death but how can that be? yes, I’m so deluded. Because this kind of history that’s not only been repeated in the Quran but in history as a whole….the hijrah proves her age was not 9. She was 9 when he made the Hijrah, and maybe not 18 but surely in her preteens or teens when they married. Dolls came with her, yes, but a long time ago, you think 13-15 year old girls sat around texting in their free time? They still played with dolls, they made them they bought them.

    I’m asking you as a human being to go and just discuss it with a sheikh, you don’t have to believe it, but i would like it if you did, because it shows your open-minded and not just sticking to one thing you don’t even clearly understand and not seeing us as a whole. That’s ignorance at its core. Youre like the Quraysh. Claiming your judgement exceeds our knowledge and beliefs. I’m sorry but mocking us and sticking to wat looks like bad things? Makes you a jerk, a very arrogant person who picks on a yuong woman who hasn’t studied at an Islamic school her whole life and doesn’t love the way a sheikh does. You want clear answers, go to a Sheikh, don’t believe us afterwards, great who cares. At least you get that judgement.

  38. C

  39. /You know that ayah “kill hem al….blah blah” You’ve probably seen it floating around cyberspace. What’s funny is that the ayah was distinctly revealed early when the Quraysh declared war on the early Medinah Muslims. They were coming, and the ayah prved as a warning. Get ready to fight. Kill them IF you must.//

    Ah yes, context. 9:5 is the verse you were referring to. So even though it’s an open-ended command in Allah’s never-changing book to mankind, it no longer applies. And I’m sure the same goes for 9:20, where Allah says that he loves those who fight more than those who don’t. And that sweet little verse about casting terror into the hearts of unbelievers and cutting off their heads and fingertips (8:12). Even though that’s obviously an open-ended command, it surely only applied to certain times. That’s probably why there’s so much outrage in the Muslim world when a jihadist beheads an unbeliever. Oh, wait…

    No, that outrage is always directed at more significant things. Things like cartoons, those who “blaspheme” the Prophet, a Christian who suggests that Muhammad wasn’t anything special. And who could blame them? After all, they’re just following the example of the perfect man, and how did he respond to those who criticized him? Well, he had them murdered of course. (For example, see Uqba, Asma bint Marwan, a woman with five children, and Abu Afak, a man of over 100 years of age). It must have been nice being able to murder people any time they did something that constituted “mischief making” or “waging war against God”. It’s no wonder Muhammad wrote 5:33 into his Quran. Or wait, pardon me, “Allah” did that, right?

    //You still don’t get it. When we see non-Muslims (not non-believers thats all different) we should still wish peace on them, still treat them with respect and kindness. The prophet did//

    It appears the difference between you and I is that you’re looking at Islam the way you want it to be, whereas I’m looking at it the way it’s presented. I came to the conclusion that Islam condemns all non-Muslims because the Quran makes it clear that all non-Muslims will be condemned, and Muhammad himself said that any Jew or Christian who doesn’t accept his claims will be condemned. It couldn’t be any more clear. I believe that Allah hates non-Muslims because he repeatedly describes them as the “vilest of animals” and “the worst of all creatures”. I’ve presented these to you before, but you persist in ignoring them. I’m glad you seem to be so open-minded. It would be wonderful if your religion supported that attitude.

    //What you missed there buddy is the fact that sex can only be had with wives and female saves.//

    Slaves are people who are owned as property by other people. As we’ve seen, Muhammad wasn’t worried about their feelings. Again, when Muhammad was asked by his followers if they should ejaculate inside them or outside, he didn’t ask about the captives’ welfare. They obviously didn’t mean a thing to him.

    //The women (IF she was unmarried or widowed) would become a potential wife or servant to any man who wishes to marry her. Although, you’d still have to respect her wishes//

    Well, you might, were it not for Allah always coming through.

    Bukhari Book 008, Number 3432:

    Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:” And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)” (i. e. they were lawful for them when their ‘Idda period came to an end).

    Good old Allah, making it alright for Muhammad’s followers to have sex with their captives, even if they were still married to the polytheists. And it makes sense I suppose, seeing how much Allah hates them.

  40. //And the Prophet was mainly a very poor man, he didn’t have money to pay for slaves.//

    Interesting. Was that why he attacked so many other tribes? It makes sense, I suppose. Murder the men, take their wives and children as slaves. It appears Muhammad did that on several occasions.

    Volume 5, Book 59, Number 512:

    Narrated Anas:

    The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, “Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.” Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet . The Prophet made her manumission as her ‘Mahr’.

    Volume 5, Book 59, Number 447:

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

    The people of (Banu) Quraiza agreed to accept the verdict of Sad bin Mu’adh. So the Prophet sent for Sad, and the latter came (riding) a donkey and when he approached the Mosque, the Prophet said to the Ansar, “Get up for your chief or for the best among you.” Then the Prophet said (to Sad).” These (i.e. Banu Quraiza) have agreed to accept your verdict.” Sad said, “Kill their (men) warriors and take their offspring as captives, “On that the Prophet said, “You have judged according to Allah’s Judgment,” or said, “according to the King’s judgment.”

    Well, maybe this was necessary though, huh? After all, Muhammad only fought in self-defense, right? But surely he would never do something as terrible as engage in the slave trade, right?

    Volume 3, Book 46, Number 711:

    Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah:

    A man amongst us declared that his slave would be freed after his death. The Prophet called for that slave and sold him. The slave died the same year.

    Yeah, well, so much for that.

    But surely he treated them wonderfully, yes?

    Book 38, Number 4458:

    Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

    A slave-girl belonging to the house of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) committed fornication. He (the Prophet) said: Rush up, Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. And inflict the prescribed punishment on those whom your right hands possess (i.e. slaves).

    Ah, a lack of mercy. Hmmm…I’m just not seeing Muhammad as the perfect man. Not sure what it is. Hopefully “allah” will bring me around some day.

  41. //oh Muhammad is a sex craving lying nut//

    Well, I didn’t say that, but now that you mention it, it would make stories such as this more understandable:

    Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268:

    Narrated Qatada:

    Anas bin Malik said, “The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number.” I asked Anas, “Had the Prophet the strength for it?” Anas replied, “We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men).” And Sa’id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).

    Yep, the greatest man to ever live on the most important mission of all time, yet he somehow takes the time out of his busy schedule to go around having sex with 11 different women in a day.

    And who could possibly hear about beautiful encounters such as this and come away not believing that Muhammad is anything short of perfect?

    Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:

    Narrated ‘Aisha:

    The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).

    Such a beautiful tale of true love. A 50 something year old man bathing with a child and fondling her while she’s on her period. Lovely.

    //Aisha with her dolls. Ok, so she might not have been 18, but still older than 9 by a few years. If you really think about it, she WAS older than Fatima and she was 24 at his death but how can that be? yes, I’m so deluded.//

    Again, the hadith collections of Bukhari and Muslim are considered the second and third most important books in Islam. They both explicitly state that was nine when Muhammad started having sex with her. Yet you reject this. Why? Instead, you choose to believe a story that suggest she might be older, yet you don’t even know the sources for these claims? Wishful thinking, I suppose.

    //Claiming your judgement exceeds our knowledge and beliefs//

    Here’s why I reject Islam: Islamic theology holds that Muhammad is perfect. Islamic “holy” books tell us that Muhammad had sex with a child, murdered people for criticizing him, struck his own wife, engaged in the slave trade, murdered entire tribes of unarmed people, would spend entire days going around and having sex with his multiple wives, had a rudimentary knowledge of Judaism and Christianity even though he claimed to be the coming Jewish Messiah (at least until the Jews rejected him as the obvious fraud he was), etc.

    And yep, for that very reason, I do have a hard time understanding anyone who understands Islamic theology and still clings to it as truth.

    And I would say hey, to each his own. People believe all kinds of silly things, and it doesn’t really bother me. But the problem comes when I look at lands that are controlled by Islamic doctrine. I see the underage marriage, the persistence of slavery, the polygamy, the wife abuse, the hatred of Jews of Christians, of anyone who is the “other”. I understand that this is all caused by Islam. Yes, people are flawed, but with Islam, they have divine sanction to commit such terrible acts. That’s why I make the effort to learn about Islam and encourage others to do the same.

  42. WOW LOL

    The fondling one, I have to do that one first.

    First you claim that she was pre-pubescent at 9. Then you claim she was 9 and he was fondling her while she was ON her period. Please clarify. And it’s not like she stayed 9 forever, she did get older and developed a figure (I didn’t know that 9 year olds developed all that at once??) . And not only that, BUT she was his wife. And its ok for a man to fondle his wife, because every man has sexual needs, as do women.

    And remember when I said that the 11 wives he originally had all required the right amount of love and affection and it had to be equal. So of course at the time he had 11 wives he would go to each and have sex. Not for his sexual cravings, but because of that rule.^^ and its not like its not allowed for a woman to be sexually excited. His wives had all been lonely and poor women who never got to have that much sex in the first place because they didn’t , it was a delight for them to have sex with their lawful husband. And THEN, when Allah said that a man has a limit to 4 wives, he went down to ONE. Aisha. Not cause she was the youngest, because remember that Khadijah thing he said “No one was a better wife than her” And she was 40 and he was 25 at the time of thier marriage. It was because of her wisdom and that close and loving element they had for each other. he died i her arms, she buried him under her bedroom floor and prayed near it, she carried on his legacy and gave advice to the next four Caliphs and they asked for it too. Even her father Abu Bakr who was the first. Now if you love your wife wouldn’t you want her to do things like that? Especially if your feeling excited? Just cause he’s a Prophet doesn’t mean he’s not a man and a human. Moses and his wife. Abraham and both his wives. And I still believe she might have been older, especially with the fondling thing because for that to give AND feel pleasure you’d need some kind of a figure and the sexual feelings in a girl do begin developing with her period but they don’t really mature until a few years later. And just now I read somewhere that because she was on her period they did that because they obviously couldn’t have sex. Don’t you think it would be sick fir the Prophet to have sex with a menstruating nine year old? Wait, you’ll probably try to find a way to make that seem true. It’s not.

    Sex isn’t a problem..why? His wives, my friend, and later, his wife.

    And wait, what? So did he kill the people of Taa’if? The people of Mekka? What happened with the Caliphs later is not my concern, but when they fought in a war and if they had to some were killed. Not like Muslims didn’t die in those…Anyway, yes God loves those who fight for him, but not in the sense where you say “I hate Islam.” or “I’m Jewish or Christian” and then I go automatically kill you. No. If a war has been waged on you, and the Quraysh waged war after war AFTER they broke the Peace Treaty the Prophet made and signed, then you fight. If your intention is to die and become a martyr and thats why you fight, you might as well throw yourself into Hell. Intention is the biggest thing in Islam. Your intention is to fight for God, not to die, not to kill, just fight. You die, you are a martyr, you injure or kill a man, its a war, and all is fair in love and war. If you go into a war thinking “Yea let’s kill those pagan bastards
    ” that defeats the whole purpose of fighting for Islam.

    The war and slavery thing. You fight and kill the warriors, not for opposing your beliefs, but for threatening and harming you.

    Anyway, the slave thing? i read that the slave was sold for 800 dirhams and given t the original master. Actaully, I’m getting a theory from numerous sources that the slave died and was sent to heaven, if he had been freed he would have taken the money of the children of this man. you know, their inheritance?

    I have a story. A Muslim man was sleeping in his bed, and he awoke in the middle of the night. He felt a strange urge to get up and then he heard a voice whisper to him to do so. Oddly enough, he listened to the voice and he moved to the side of the room. At that moment a car crashed into the side of his room and landed right beside him. If he had stayed in bed, he wouldv’e been killed. Then he saw a figure standing beside him saying “If you didn’t listen to me you would have died a martyr.” That was Satan. Moral of the story, sometimes it better to die in the state your in. Like Sumayya who died in the middle of Abu Jahl torturing her. You could die a martyr. Not always though. I guess it depends on the situation and intentions.

    And when someone does something wrong, they are punished. The slave girl didn’t ask for Allah’s forgiveness when she had the chance to. The man who committed the act of rape was free of persecution for that reason alone. Asking for the person you wronged to forgive you, God’s forgveness. Now I don’t agree with everything in that hadith, I think you should understand in Islam, forgiveness comes with suffering. “Indeed with hardhsip shall come ease.” Even the smallest twinge of pain like a splinter removes sins. Again not saying we should flog every wrong-doer or inflict pain on people but in this girls case, because in the afterlife imagine she could be in heaven, because that might have removed her sins completely.

    And the sources of Aisha’s age. Wel, the Hijrah is in the Quran and sunnah, Fatima’s age is in the seerah, the sudanese guy’s claims, well, why dont you look for it since your looking up every hadith you can think of. And think about it historically, not islamically. Let’s pretend I’m not Muslim but I’m arguing this fact because it holds sense. If she had been his wife at the time of the Hijrah, he would have sent her to Medinah along with the others. And she was a child when he went. He came back she’d become a pre-teen AT LEAST. And who knows, even the soundest hadiths could be wrong. Because it makes a lot of sense when you thin of it.

    Anyway, your opinion doesn’t really matter to me, no offense, but obviously when you see a muslim convert you don’t say “They don’t see the truth, what I see.” They converted becasue they saw what you couldn’t or refused to see.

  43. //So of course at the time he had 11 wives he would go to each and have sex. Not for his sexual cravings, but because of that rule.^^//

    Doesn’t this strike you as strange? According to Islam, Muhammad is the the “seal of the prophets”, the man almighty God has chosen to entrust with his eternal message to mankind. And yet despite this incredibly heavy burden, he still manages to find entire days to spend having sex with 11 different women. Why was this such an important part of Allah’s plan, in your opinion?

    // And THEN, when Allah said that a man has a limit to 4 wives, he went down to ONE. Aisha//

    Hey, more baseless claims. Please provide support for this. Actually, don’t bother. It’s an obvious lie and/or misrepresentation, and I’m happy to show why that’s the case.

    First, let’s take a look at 33:53:

    Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah’s Messenger, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time.

    If Muhammad only had one wife, why would Allah feel the need to tell other Muslims that they couldn’t marry any of his widows (emphasis on the plural here)? Why, because he had a lot more than one wife, and there’s no evidence he “went down to one”, as you so strangely claimed (strange, since there’s absolutely no evidence for it).

    Second, let’s look at 33:50 one more time:

    O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom God has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her; – this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess; – in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    Obviously, this is meant to exempt Muhammad from Allah’s decision to limit the number of wives to 4 (plus all the sex slaves he could handle, or course).

    How convenient for Muhammad, huh? Almighty God himself made sure he could have sex with female captives, his nieces, pretty much anyone. What a loving god Muhammad had.

    By the way, why did you make up your claim about Muhammad “going down to one wife”? Did someone just happen to tell you that, are you outright lying? It’s such a strange thing to say, I’m really interested to know what motivated it.

  44. //And wait, what? So did he kill the people of Taa’if?//

    Muhammad had plenty of people killed. It is interesting to me that you so often speak of “forgiveness” and “tolerance” within Islam when there was clearly so little of it from Muhammad. Let’s take just the example of the Banu Qurayza. We can even go along with the Islamic narrative of the Qurayza being the breakers of a peace treaty. Accepting that, once they were defeated, they were unarmed and posed no threat to him. Perfect time to show some forgiveness, huh? But what do we see from Muhammad?

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 4 Book 52 Number 280:

    Narrated Abu-Sa’id al-Khudri: When the tribe of Banu Qurayza was ready to accept Sad’s judgment, Allah’s Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah’s Apostle said (to the Ansar), “Stand up for your leader.” Then Sad came and sat beside Allah’s Apostle who said to him. “These people are ready to accept your judgment.” Sad said, “I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners.” The Prophet then remarked, “O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah.”

    Perfect time for Muhammad to break in with some forgiveness there, wouldn’t you say? But no, he just went ahead with Sad’s decision to kill all the men and take the women and children as captives.

    And then we see a continuation of his lack of mercy:

    “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men. As they were being taken in small groups to the Prophet, they said to one another, ‘What do you think will be done to us?’ Someone said, ‘Do you not understand. On each occasion do you not see that the summoner never stops? He does not discharge anyone. And that those who are taken away do not come back. By God, it is death!’ The affair continued until the Messenger of Allah had finished with them all.”

    Nice guy, huh? Not hard to see why so many view him as perfect, right?

    And what was it you were saying about Muhammad only having sex with Aisha?

    “The Prophet selected for himself from among the Jewish women of the Qurayza, Rayhanah bt. Amr. She became his concubine. When he predeceased her, she was still in his possession. When the Messenger of Allah took her as a captive, she showed herself averse to Islam and insisted on Judaism.”

    Right. Murder all the men, then take one of the women as his sex slave. Lovely man, this Muhammad.

    //Anyway, the slave thing? i read that the slave was sold for 800 dirhams and given t the original master. Actaully, I’m getting a theory from numerous sources that the slave died and was sent to heaven, if he had been freed he would have taken the money of the children of this man. you know, their inheritance?//

    Why do you think Muhammad sold the man? That doesn’t sound very loving and tolerant. And how about this:

    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 132:

    Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Zam’a:

    The Prophet said, “None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day.”

    Wouldn’t a “perfect man” say something like, “Don’t beat anybody. Just be nice to everyone, and certainly beat neither your wife nor any man, and if you do own a slave, release him, as that is the humane thing to do.”

    But sadly, no.

    Anyhow, since the Quran clearly condones slavery (for example, 24:32 and 2:178) and Muhammad was a slave owner and slave trader, you do agree that in the year 2011, slavery is morally acceptable, correct? Or do you believe that by today’s standards Muhammad’s ownership of slaves was wrong, and that even though the Quran condones slavery, it is no longer applicable?

    //The slave girl didn’t ask for Allah’s forgiveness when she had the chance to//

    If you actually read the hadith, you see that she didn’t have the chance. The relevant portion:

    He (the Prophet) said: Rush up, Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her

    “Rush up and inflict the punishment on her”. Why didn’t he tell Ali to wait for a while to see if she would take the opportunity to repent? Or why didn’t he at least tell him to take this time to tell her to seek forgiveness, rather than, “Leave her alone till her bleeding stops, then inflict the prescribed punishment?”

    //Because it makes a lot of sense when you thin of it.//

    Here’s what makes sense. The most reliable collections of hadith state her age as nine. There is no other age stated. Therefore, the only reasonable course of action is to accept that she was nine.

    Also, when you consider the fact that in 65:4 Allah clearly condones marriage towards pre-pubescent girls, it makes total sense. There’s absolutely no reason to believe anything else.

    By the way, Islamic theology holds that Muhammad is the perfect man. What led you to decide that he was the greatest man to ever live?

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