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NYPD document: Gather intel info at Shiite mosques

3 February 2012 General 126 Comments Email This Post Email This Post

NEW YORK (AP) — The New York Police Department recommended increasing surveillance of thousands of Shiite Muslims and their mosques, based solely on their religion, as a way to sweep the Northeast for signs of Iranian terrorists, according to interviews and a newly obtained secret police document.

The document offers a rare glimpse into the thinking of NYPD intelligence officers and how, when looking for potential threats, they focused their spying efforts on mosques and Muslims. Police analysts listed a dozen mosques from central Connecticut to the Philadelphia suburbs. None has been linked to terrorism, either in the document or publicly by federal agencies.
The Associated Press has reported for months that the NYPD infiltrated mosques, eavesdropped in cafes and monitored Muslim neighborhoods with plainclothes officers. Its spying operations were begun after the 2001 terror attacks with help from the CIA in a highly unusual partnership.

The May 2006 NYPD intelligence report, entitled “US-Iran Conflict: The Threat to New York City,” made a series of recommendations, including: “Expand and focus intelligence collections at Shi’a mosques.”

The NYPD is prohibited under its own guidelines and city law from basing its investigations on religion. Under FBI guidelines, which the NYPD says it follows, many of the recommendations in the police document would be prohibited.

The report, drawn largely from information available in newspapers or sites like Wikipedia, was prepared for Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly. It was written at a time of great tension between the U.S. and Iran. That tension over Iran’s nuclear ambition has increased again recently.

Police estimated the New York area Shiite population to be about 35,000, with Iranians making up about 8,500. The document also calls for canvassing the Palestinian community because there might be terrorists there.

“The Palestinian community, although not Shi’a, should also be assessed due to presence of Hamas members and sympathizers and the group’s relationship with the Iranian government,” analysts wrote.

The secret document stands in contrast to statements by Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who said the NYPD never considers religion in its policing. Kelly has said police go only where investigative leads take them, but the document described no leads to justify expanded surveillance at Shiite mosques.

The document also renews debate over how the NYPD privately views Muslims. Kelly has faced calls for his resignation recently from some Muslim activists for participating in a video that says Muslims want to “infiltrate and dominate” the United States. The NYPD showed the video to nearly 1,500 officers during training.

Documents previously obtained by the AP show widespread NYPD infiltration of mosques. It’s not clear, however, whether the May 2006 report prompted police to infiltrate the mosques on the list. One former police official who has seen the report said that, generally, the recommendations were followed but he could not say for sure whether these mosques were infiltrated.

A current law enforcement official, also familiar with the report, said that since it was issued the NYPD learned that Hezbollah was more political than religious and concluded that it’s not effective to monitor Shiites.

Both insisted on anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the program.
Neither David Cohen, the NYPD’s top intelligence officer, nor department spokesman Paul Browne responded to emails or phone calls from The Associated Press this week.
Iran is an overwhelmingly Shiite country, but Shiites are a small percentage of the U.S. Muslim population. By contrast, al-Qaida is a Sunni organization and many U.S. leaders consider Shiite clerics as allies in the fight against homegrown extremism. Shiites are often oppressed overseas and many have sought asylum in the West.

The document is dated just weeks after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told Congress that, “We may face no greater challenge from a single country than from Iran.”
Even now, the U.S. remains particularly concerned with Iran, not only because of its nuclear research but also because intelligence officials don’t believe they know how Iranian sympathizers inside the United States would respond if the two countries went to war. By far, the largest group of Iranians in the U.S. lives in or around Los Angeles. Yet the NYPD, with a smaller Iranian population that police estimated at about 8,500 in New York City, shared the concerns about reactions to an open military conflict.

Asad Sadiq, president of the Bait-ul-Qaim mosque in the Philadelphia suburb of Delran, N.J., said the NYPD was being unfairly broad.

“If you attack Cuba, are all the Catholics going to attack here? This is called guilt by association,” Sadiq, a dentist, said after seeing his mosque in the NYPD document. “Just because we are the same religion doesn’t mean we’re going to stand up and harm the United States. It’s really absurd.”

The AP showed the document to several veteran counterterrorism analysts. None said they had seen anything like it.

“It’s really problematic if you make a jump from a possible international conflict to saying therefore we need to monitor Shiite mosques writ large,” said Brian Fishman, the former research director at West Point’s Combatting Terrorism Center. “It doesn’t follow.”

For instance, the NYPD analysts focused much of the report on the Alavi Foundation, a New York nonprofit group that the federal government has since accused of being secretly controlled by the Iranian government. Analysts then looked at a mosque where Alavi members prayed and that police say may have been linked to an effort to buy information about rocket technology for Iran.

There is no explanation, however, for how those suspicions warranted expanding surveillance to other Shiite mosques, including those far outside the department’s jurisdiction in Connecticut and New Jersey.

“Any time that you begin to isolate certain communities from a policing perspective because you think there’s risk, you have the potential that somebody overreaches,” said Robert Riegle, a former Department of Homeland Security analyst who oversaw efforts to work with state and local agencies.

At the Al-Mahdi Foundation mosque in Brooklyn, worshippers intoned their prayers Wednesday while touching their foreheads to disks of clay on the floor, a Shiite tradition.
“After 1,400 years, the Shias are being targeted in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, everywhere,” imam Malik Sakhawat Hussain said after being told that his mosque was in the NYPD document. “If U.S. authorities become suspicious of the Shias, I would say we are a very oppressed community of the world.”

At the Masjid Al-Rahman, a prayer hall in the basement of a Brooklyn apartment building, manager Abo Maher was surprised to see his mosque on the NYPD’s list of Shiite locations.
“This isn’t even Shia,” he said. “Their information is wrong.”

The police department’s Demographics Unit, the secretive squad of plainclothes officers used to monitor restaurants, social clubs and other gathering spots, found similar issues in Iranian neighborhoods, one former NYPD official recalled.

Muslims make up only a fraction of New York’s Iranian community so squad members returned from their rounds in Iranian neighborhoods and reported finding Jews and Christians, the former official said.

Sadiq, the New Jersey mosque president, said about 250 families — mostly Pakistanis and Indians and few Iraqis — attend his mosque. Every few years, he said, an FBI agent stops by, introduces himself and asks whether there’s been any radical rhetoric in his mosque and whether he knows anyone with connections to Iran. The most recent meeting was just Wednesday, he said, and the NYPD would be welcome if it came openly.

The intelligence unit operates in secrecy with little outside oversight. The City Council is not told about secret intelligence programs. And though the unit operates under the auspices of a federal anti-drug task force and receives federal money, it is not overseen by Congress. The Obama administration, including the Justice Department, has repeatedly sidestepped questions about whether it endorses the NYPD’s tactics.

“They think that they can do whatever they want and get away with it,” Sadiq said.
The document also suggests a broader international intelligence mission than the department has previously acknowledged. The NYPD has officers stationed in 11 foreign cities such as London, Paris, Madrid, and Tel Aviv, where they work with local police and act as the NYPD’s eyes and ears overseas.

In their recommendations for the foreign liaison unit, analysts wrote that officers should: “Focus international intelligence collection on the Iranian threat, to include the activities of the IIS, Hezbollah, Hamas etc. throughout Europe and the Middle East.”

NYPD officers abroad are not supposed to be spies and do not answer to the U.S. director of national intelligence or the CIA station chiefs who coordinate America’s efforts to gather intelligence on Iran. In fact, the NYPD’s international officers aren’t even paid by the department. Rather, the program is paid for through a nonprofit foundation that raises money from corporate donors.

It has not previously been known that the NYPD would consider gathering overseas intelligence on Iranian intelligence services. The police department does not disclose details about the inner workings of the international program to the City Council, to Congress or to U.S. intelligence agencies.

Original post: NYPD document: Gather intel info at Shiite mosques

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126 Comments »

  1. Yep. It starts with whomever we are at war with, and ends with Journalists in Prison…

  2. We took a group of multi-faith students to the local Islamic Cultural Center this afternoon and I was pleased to learn that its members were going into the City after prayers to protest the NYPD Islamophobic attitude and training films.

  3. nothing wrong with this, as muslims are the only ones terrorizing the ´world, if you don´t like way you are treat4ed why don´t you go live in an islamic country and see how much freedom you have there, fucking bastards, you piss me off! we give you your freedom took you in when nobody else did, because musl8im countries are all shitholes, and now you try to turn our countries into the shithole from where you came.

  4. This is wrong.

  5. Jonathan, thank god not all americans have shithole heads like yours, loser, go have something useful to do with your miserable life.

  6. Dear Jonathan SImon, not that you will comment back, but you do realize that there are more non-Muslim terrorists than Muslim terrorists? Look at the statistics. Also, name one negative thing the American Islamic Community, as a whole, have done.

    Hmm?

  7. How not to welcome new immigrants into our “melting pot”.

  8. Jonathan please go take your medication.

  9. @Jonathan– Putting aside your obvious prejudice, I would just like to point out a glaring factual error: Muslims are not the only ones terrorizing the world.

  10. With a net that big, they should catch a lot of dolphins.

  11. Clearly, Jonathon is thinking with his gut and typing with his penis.

  12. Thanks jonathan, now we know to look for your picture in the dictionary under “islamophobe” and “bigot”

  13. @ REED, bigoted is the quran , i suggest you read it. @ CHRIS i dont know about the americam muslims but i guess they are as bad as the the immigrants we have here in europe, please show me those statistics you speak of, i would love to see them@SANA, it´s not my fault you follow a fascist ideology why don´-t you go and learn about the evils of islam before you start standing up for it.

  14. @Johnathan Simon, are you a smart guy? If you are can you please tell me which group of people did the following events:

    1)Who expelled the Jews from Europe during 19th century?
    2) Who massacred the Native American Indians (from north to south America)?
    3) Who started World War 1?
    4) Who started World War 2?

  15. 5)Who started the Cold War?
    6)Who dropped 2..yes TWO nuclear bombs in Japan?

    The Muslims? I dont think so…

  16. Look at the CIA/FBI statistics, or actually, any other federal intelligence statistics. This site: http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/statistics-on-war-conflict/statistics-on-terrorism/ Has interesting stats on the cultural acceptance of Terrorism (Note, Muslims, as a whole, are against violent acts)

  17. @Jessica, that was during war, and they were given an ultimatum, unlike their unprovoked attack on pearl harbour.

  18. I this fucked or what?

  19. WW1 was started when someone tried to assasinate the hungarian crown prince i believe. who started WW2 well, uhm HITLER PERHAPS??! who killed the native americans?? uhm the english??(fuckknows) this is all nice and well, but they were not terrorists. and still the figure is minor compared to the deaths cased by islam, or do you think every country under islamic rule became islamic peacefully?? NO they were all conquered and either conversed or murdered, usually the men and boys murdered and the girls and woman enslaved and raped and eventually conversed and their children being raised as muslims.

  20. LMFAO@CHRIs, FFS you´re trying to use a BLOG to convince me of something?? nice try you muppet!

  21. Jihnathan, wot exactly r u doing in this group? u’re obviously a neo-nazi and this group fights AGAINST neo-nazies such as ur idiotic-self. Off is the general direction in which members of this group wish u would fuck. And here is another clue for u: Islam and islamists strictly forbid rape, thats a western kink ;)

  22. i fucking HATE nazi´s and i hate fascists, that´s why i opose the islamo-nazi´s of the 21st century. islam is totally fascist and the quran 100% bigoted, how about doing some research before opening your gob, f..ing anarchist scum!

  23. islam forbids rape does it, you´re wrong again my pedigree chum, islam forbids rape of muslim woman, it in fact encourages rape on non -muslims, mohammed even told his soldiers to rape the woman he enslaved first saying they coud not cum inside of them, then changing it them being allowed to cum inside of them and allah would decide if they got pregnant or not, hang on ill get he exact chapter from the hadith out on this one, i dont like making claims without being ablt to back it up, afterall i´m not muslim

  24. Jonathan, you have a nice BMW ragtop – looks like you are in the UK – beautiful daughter – you answered a question and said you are depressed – it’s after 1 AM for you – take your meds, get some rest my friend – go hate somewhere else – this hatred you spew is why you are depressed. Be grateful for the good things in your life. Get some help, and go away.

  25. FROM THE QURAN – 33:50
    “Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;…”

  26. Jonathan,

    Why don’t you back up your claims with some hard facts? (Fox news and Robert Spencer/Pam Geller/ David Horowitz don’t count)

  27. FROM THE QURAN – 4:24
    “And all married women are forbidden unto you save those captives whom your right hand possess. It is a decree of Allah for you.]

  28. FROM THE QURAN – 23:5,6
    “…who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them..

  29. I suggest u visit my country. We’re muslims, and u might experience islam first hand-not the neo-nazi propaganda u hear on Fox and other primitive media. Come to Bosnia, Sarajevo. We have 365 mosques in Sarajevo, each for a day of the year if u with, and in them we celebrate Eid with our christian brothers, just like we celebrate Christmases in churches.

    I see u r very confused and dont really have a single argument but go into a defensive strategy of discussion by attacking others with lies some idiots filled ur head with, so i will not enter a discussion with u. I wish u well, and should u ever decide to visit my country, i’d like to show u around a bit wot islam is really about.

  30. FROM SAHIH BUKHARI – VOLUME 9, #506:

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, “It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection”.

    Qaza’a said, “I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, “No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.””

  31. ok, so now we got rape covered, togteher with proof that mohammed was a slavetrader, next subject?? mohammed the peadophile or mohammed the mass-murderer?? you guys choose, let me know when you´re ready

  32. Johnathan, please-u just oposed ur self. stop quoting. u’re losing this agrument. Son u have to know something about The Book u quote before reading and especially quoting it.

  33. To Jessica Qais: Yes, we dropped to atomic bombs on Japan. That saved many, many American lives, and was the right thing to do. As Yamamoto said, “I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.” Yep.

  34. mate, go educate yourself you silly sausage!

  35. funny that you don´t have an answer though, instead you just say i cannot quote from your fascist book, t sucks being wrong doesnt it!

  36. look, i tried being nice to u, telling u in a nice way u’re a dick, so, here, u’re just a dick. u got shit for brains and even thats an over statement. u just want to be in the center of attention so i’ll let u be, for i dont enjoy talking to dickheads such as ur self who dont even know their own history. Son im more educated than u or that poor little daughter u have will ever be. so dont ever dare tell me to educate my self u pathetic inbreed. go play with ur mong friends-where u belong. u dont even deserve another word from me. scum belongs to the sewage, where u are right now i filthy nazi swine.

  37. inbreeding?? as in first cousin marriages?? as in permissable under islamic law?? perhaps someone as yourself?? i´m so sorry that you cannot accept what your so called religion is about, i hope one day you will see the truth and drive the darkness out of you. untill that time my dimwitted friend i wish you the bestb of luck, im sorry that i have to continue showing the world what islam is about, thats because of people like yourself you realize.

  38. Can they put some surveillance on the nasty pedophiles and child molesters who are damaging lives every second. That would be government $$$ well spent!

  39. P.S you answered like a true muslim, getting upset and agitated because you cannot win the debate you said rape is not permitted in islam and i PROVED you wrong by quoting from your own books, sucks doesnt it. but WEL DONE TO ACTING LIKE A TRUE MUSLIM. see this is why i havent done this in about two years becaue it´s f..ing boring arguing with you people, it´s to fucking easy and your responses are always the same

  40. sorry denis, i missed the part where you said chrstians and muslims like eachother in sarajevo, you f..ing fool, muslims and christians kill eachother there, they could eat eachothers guts, same for the serbs and the albo´s, you truly are clueless my friend!

  41. Even the biggest enemies of Islam end up converting. Jonathan is a loon and Allah has set a seal on his heart. He’s hopeless. Even if muslims told him that the sky was blue, he’d find a way to refute them. Anywho, time to pray.. Salaam..

  42. Jonathan, may God guide you… Life is too short to be so contentious. This is ignorance..

  43. not really julius, come, name a topic let me prove you wrong, i know lets discuss the part in the quran where the mountains are like huge paperweights keeping the earth in place, or the sun revolving around the earth or how about the part where the skey is being kept up by invisble strings, as if it´s some f..ing tent. DONT FORGET TO A MUSLIMS THE QURAN IS THE EXACT WORD OF GOD THEREFORE THERE ARE NO MISTAKES IN THE QURAN.

  44. I can understand Shiites. Just like Sikhs. We shouldn’t just presume they are hostile but there based on glory in war so we must have an liget eye on them

  45. sorry to burst your bubble dear julius but more people leave islam (even with the penalty of death) then those converting to it, the only reason it is still growing is because is because they breed like sewer rats

  46. calling islam a peaceful religion is ¨Ignorance¨ abdullah.

  47. Why does if have to be like that John (if that’s ok to call you that). What’s the big deal? What have muslims and Islam done to you?

  48. Exactly Jonathan. And we can’t forget the Quran’s wisdom with regards to the sun. If it weren’t for Allah, we still probably wouldn’t know it sets in a “muddy pool”. How could one ever get by without such guidance?

  49. Sigh, I’m 15 years old and laughing at a grown man arguing over a closed minded view. It saddens me. Jonathan, why do you hate Muslims so? Perhaps you were raised this way, just as some extremists were, Unfortunatly you are an extremist of a different kind. The kind that caused the imprisonment of the Japanese in the US in WWII. You claim to be an arsenal for freedom, but what you promote is the exact opposite.

  50. @ Julius, besides our prisons in europe being filled with immigrant muslims, rape epidemics in scandinavia, muslim rape and groming gangs in the UK, ANTI-SEMITISM, bombplotting, HALAL being sold to us unwittingly, mosques springing up like mushrooms, burqa´s on the streets, entire areas becoming no go zones for non-muslims, disrespecting out wardead, not taking guidedogs into taxi´s or buses, our pensioners dying of cold while we let in a family of 8 and give them a 1.3 million pound house to live in and a 1000 pounds a week (no this has not just happened once) muslims in supermarkets refusing to handle pork products, muslims in holland calling for a ban on dogs in the city of den haag, I COULD GO ON AND ON AND ON. and these are just exaples in europe, don teven get me started on the rest of the world

  51. //What have muslims and Islam done to you?//

  52. @gwenn i do promote freedom, that is why islam must be stopped, islam is fascist and bigoted, but gets away with it, because it calls itself a religion, if naziism would be a religion with hitler as their prophet, would it be accepted?? NO, but because it has been happening for 1400 years it is supposed to be acceptable, islam is anti-freedom, anti-democracy- and anti- other religions

  53. For every one thing you claim Muslims want to be rid of, you have three more Muslim aspects of life you would have extinguished. You contradict yourself so much it dizzied me!

  54. Ok John, you claim to be very knowledgeable and I’ve noticed that whenever someone presents a case, you have a response. My question is: what’s the purpose of life? Surely it cant be to get on Facebook and bash Islam.

  55. We see the destruction of Islam all around the world. We see women getting beaten by their husbands because Quran 4:34 commands it, and because the “perfect man” struck Aisha. We see rampant pedophilia throughout Islamic lands because the perfect man had sex with a nine year old girl and Quran 65:4 allows not only marriage, but divorce with prepubescent girls. We see the insane hatred towards Jews in general and Israel in particular, and all because of Muhammad’s incredible hatred towards Jews and the Quran’s descriptions of them as “apes and pigs” and as the “strongest enemy of the Muslims”. We see rampant slavery throughout Islamic lands, all because the Quran condones it, and Muhammad himself was both a slave owner and slave trader. We see the disrespect of women, all because Muhammad was under the impression that women were “deficient in both religion and intelligence”. And that’s just for starters. Trust me, it has nothing to do with bigotry, and everything to do with a keen awareness of how horrible Islam truly is.

  56. every person has a different purpose, some even have none, my purpose in life is to gain knowledge and wealth and hand both down to my children

  57. But what has Islam and muslims done to you though? Any personal stories?

  58. Even an apple has a purpose. I don’t believe we’re here by chance. You know? Anywho, I wouldn’t beat my Muslim wife. I don’t know any Muslim brother who would. Has you ever been to an Islamic country or do you rely on the media and people who claimed to have left Islam. Lastly, what would it take to calm your heart in regards to Islam? I appreciate your responses by the way

  59. Hey LOSER Jonathan, you think you know it all and you have the arsenal to fight Islam and Musli
    ms by using out of context quotes from Bukhari and Quran !!! You are a hate monger and an ignorant. With all bigots like you; Islam is still no 1 in spreading world wide, you know why, it’s Allah’s promise in the Holy Quran. I insist you loser instead of reading with no comprehending the Quran ; go do something useful in your wasted life. I will be a true muslim and ignor your idiocy and say peace on you. ps I won’t waste anymore time with u.

  60. islam has done me no harm personally, but where i see i evil i will fight it, because, for evil to win, all it takes,is for good men to do nothing.

  61. hahaha good one I like this Edmond Burk quote, but don’t consider yourself a good man hate monger.

  62. Islamophobes… Deaf, dumb and blind

  63. I see. Islam has done nothing to you personally but you see evil in it so you’ll fight it. Have you gone to a Mosque and sat down with muslims or an Imam to express yourself? Or is it just an internet thing?

  64. ^^^LOL, answered like a true muslims, thank you for proving my point, you can never debate about islam, you know why, because islam is weak islam is flawed, that is why muslims connat accept crtiticism of it, because they cannot defend it and definately never win an argument on it, all they can do is quote from the quran, and sau that is the truth because it is in the quran, yet when you use the same quran to show them how sick and evil it is, it is being taken out of context, @SANA do you know hy islam is still growing??? that is due to WESTERN FOREIGN AID, we have dropped your childdeaths dramatically , more people leave islam every year (DESPITE THIS BEING PUNISHABLE BY DEATH IN ISLAM) then convert to it, just because you breed like sewer rats it is still growing

  65. @Julius, i have spoken to multiple imams and i have been to mosques

  66. The admins should block this John character..we are supposed to be discussing increased surveillance of the Shi’a. Instead we are feeding the troll.

  67. lol, i´m off to bed, it´s 01.20, goodnight all, look forward to conversing with you all tomorrow, :)

  68. Block Jon..this isnt the page for his nonsense.

  69. Haha and you’re acting like a complete moron, if you relate the wide spread of Islam due to breeding then you’re losing your objectivity when yoy ignor the number of non muslims reverting to Islam. I’ve seen the comments of brothers and sisters argue with you and they raise good points and questions but you’re immuned against the truth. I’ll be idiot if I wasted my valuable time arguing with you. These sewer rats will eat your heart hater.

  70. When it comes to books from God, John Simon refers to the Bible. “And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father (Genesis 19:30-36) Because we all know God sends garbage like this for people to follow

  71. Well, it’s been fun reading John Simon’s posts. He’s quite the Facebook freedom fighter. Combating Islam one keystroke at a time. John is a true example of the word coward. You get on here and spread lies about Islam. You’ve never even been to an Islamic country so you can never know how things really are. You rely on biased outlets. Islam is on the rise because it’s the truth. No matter how many verses you quote out of context or present, you can’t stop it. That’s your real problem. If you really want to fight the Muslims, join the phony war on terror. Go die for a lie and meet your creator afterwards. Let’s see how merciful he’ll be on you since you have so much compassion. Laugh and ridicule all you want but in the end, you’ll be sorry. Allah is just and everyone will get what they deserve

  72. Hilarious. A Muslim criticizing others for their sexual perversions. Meanwhile you, as a Muslim, believe that Muhammad is the “perfect man”. Yes Muhammad, a man who had sex with a child, who wrote it into his own “holy” book that he could have sex with anyone he pleased, a man who would go around having sex with all his wives over the course of a night, a man who looked the other way while his followers raped their captives.

  73. Allah is the greatest Mohammed is the most noble humanbeing ever, Islam will prevail as always.

  74. If you despise polygamy than go fight the Mormons.. For your info, this is 2012. Back then, if a girl reached the age of puberty , they were able to be married. Secondly, he wouldn’t dare have relations with someone unless he married them. You on the other hand probably would. Your ignorant mind can’t even see the purpose of polygamy. Women outnumber the Men so, they took on additional spouses for the sake of God. You think Abraham and other prophets only had one wife? Think again. You’ll be sorry too

  75. Then convince me of that Sana. Tell me how Muhammad, a man who has sex with a child, a man who married his own daughter in law rather than resisting his lustful desires as a truly good man would, a man who murdered others for criticizing him (Uqba, Asma bint Marwan, etc.) rather than forgiving them as a truly “noble” person might, a man who elected to slaughter the entire Banu Qurayza tribe, an unarmed tribe that posed no immediate danger, rather than forgive them, a man who struck his own wife hard enough to hurt her instead of simply forgiving her and verbally admonishing her, a man who owned, bought and sold slaves, a man who tortured others instead of trusting in his “Allah”, a man who looked the other way when his men raped women…yes, please convince me that Muhammad was indeed the “most noble human being ever”.

  76. Jon goes to bed and Vitor takes the reins repeating his lies and adding his own…admins?

  77. Blah, blah, blah. You’re putting us to sleep with your lies… http://youtu.be/ss2hULhXf04

  78. Historical context is meaningless, Julius. Your Quran says that Muhammad is a beautiful pattern of conduct. The Quran is the eternal, unchangeable word of God. You believe that Muhammad, a man who at 50+ years of age had sex with a nine year old girl, is the most perfect man to have ever lived. You won’t criticize his behavior, for to do would mean to cease being a Muslim, so stop with the “it was okay then” BS. He wouldn’t have had sex with a woman who wasn’t his wife, huh? Then how do you explain 33:50? O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful? Good thing his Allah was there to tell him he could have sex with anyone he pleased, huh? Any other lies you want to try? Seriously, how can you possibly read verses like these and not be convinced that he was nothing but a conman? You believe the almighty creator of the universe is taking time out of his busy schedule to ensure his “prophet” can have sex with anyone he pleases?

  79. Where are my lies, Samuel?

  80. Unfortunately, for you all, I didn’t write this garbage. You can blame Bukhari and Muslim and Ishaq for keeping such meticulous records of all of your “prophet’s” vile behavior.

  81. You sound jealous or something. Are you upset because God didn’t make you a prophet and allow you to do certain things? As I said, you’ll be sorry to. What is your purpose for being on here? Don’t you have dinner to prepare or sitcoms to watch? You just choose to bash Islam it seems. Pathetic indeed

  82. This is Americans against Islamophobia. Not Americans for Islamophobia. That’s like me going onto a Vegan page and bashing them for not eating meat. A waste of time wouldn’t you agree? Probably not

  83. Not going to even bother attempting to refute anything I’ve said, Julius? No reason to, I suppose. It’s not like anyone could possibly offer a reasonable justification that someone as vile as your prophet could possibly be a perfect man. So you resort to “you’ll be sorry”? Sure. So I’ll end up with “boiling oil poured down my throat” and my “skin being replaced just so I can endure more flames”? Seriously man, as a reasonable, rational person, I realize your “prophet” was nothing but a violent, perverted conman, and that his quran is a bunch of boring, repetitive, hateful lies. So quit with the subtle threats. Hopefully you all will be able to break free of your hateful little cult some day.

  84. Everything you type sir…that is all

  85. I suppose it’s because I’m not “Islamophobic”. For to say that I am is to imply that I have some irrational fear or hatred of Islam. But of course, I oppose Islam for I see how obviously false Islam is. Now, if it were just that you all were following some silly, obviously false religion but not doing harm to anyone else, I wouldn’t much care. But because so many Muslims are filled with the hatred your cult inspires, and so many people are suffering terribly all because some violent pervert in 7th century Arabia decided to call himself a prophet, I oppose Islam wherever I can and seek to turn Muslims away from it. Since if people can finally leave Islam behind, the world may finally see equal rights for women, it may finally see a lessening in the hatred for the Jews, a realization that Christians, Jews, Hindus, we’re all alright, even if there are some minor differences in our outlooks, a great reduction in the problems of slavery, pedophilia, domestic abuse, etc. That’s what it’s about, and for that reason, I don’t consider it a waste of time.

  86. ^haha because the world didnt have these problems before Islam or wouldnt have them if there werent any Muslims..upped surveillance of Shi’a masajid anyone?…admins?

  87. Cult huh? I guess your Islam basher clan wins club of the year right? I’ll be honest with you Palmer, you have every reason to be a skeptic on Islam. Even if I were to begin to truly attempt and break down Islam to you, you’d still be a basher. Facebook isn’t even the place for this anyways. Go to your local Mosque and speak with an Imam. Go in with an intention to actually comprehend the message of Islam and the prophet. I’m Muslim and just because you don’t believe what I do, you are not to be harmed or persecuted. That goes against everything we believe. You’ve got extreme people all over the world and to cast the whole net on Muslims is unfair. How long can you hold your peace when the world is against you? How long can you hold your peace when your people are facing genocide and the world has made it seem like you are the enemy? You’d be surprised.

  88. Of course not. Man is flawed, there’s no way around it. But mankind is obviously being held back by Islam. As long as people persist in believing that Muhammad is “perfect”, pedophilia can not be eliminated, since he had sex with a child. As with slavery, since Muhammad was both a slave owner and slave trader. As with domestic abuse, since Muhammad struck his own wife. As with the criticism of Islam, since Muhammad had people murdered for criticizing him. As with treating people of other faiths equally, since Muhammad said that he had been commanded to fight non-Muslims until they either converted, submitted to Islam and “felt themselves subdued”, etc. Still calling out for the admins? Instead of doing that, why don’t you refute everything I’ve said, especially since it’s all “lies”?

  89. Really now? You just want us to leave Islam huh? “And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, “Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the only guidance. If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper” (2:120) See what I mean? They will never be satisfied until Muslims leave Islam.

  90. I guess the Catholic church and their priests must be wiped out because little boys will continue to get raped and later become gay right? Maybe if they were able to get married than little boys wouldn’t have to suffer right? Doing so is the only way to combat pedophilia and homosexuality right? We can do this all day Palmer.. Give it a rest

  91. Why should I engage lies Vitor..you wrote that Muhammad(saw) married his daughter in law. He(saw) had one son who died in childhood so you must be referring to the marriage to his cousin Zainab(ra) after she divorced Zaid(ra). That was your first distortion/lie. You have lied ever since. Now you are just being fallacious. You expect people believe that pedophilia, slavery, domestic abuse etc exist because of the Prophet(as). Right because the nonMuslims who do it are following his examples? You sound like a demagogue, prone to and fond of exaggeration, distortions, special pleading, red herrings, and non sequiturs. I call for that admins because you are on the wrong page for Islam bashing..so.. surveillance of Shi’a masajid?

  92. Fallacious huh? As though I’m intentionally attempting to mislead or deceive those on this page? All I’ve done is quote Islamic Scripture. I’ve said that pedophilia, slavery, domestic abuse, etc. are rampant in Islamic society because Muhammad engaged in all these activities and Muslims believe that they must follow Muhammad’s example, as Muhammad is considered to be perfect. So where are the attempts to deceive? Does not the Quran state that Muhammad is a “beautiful pattern of conduct” and that “those who desire to follow Allah must follow his prophet”. Are the more reliable collections of hadith considered by Muslims to be the collections by Muslim and Bukhari? Do not those collections tell us that Muhammad did engage in pedophilia, that he did engage in slaver ownership, that he did strike Aisha hard enough to hurt her when she disobeyed him? So what was “fallacious” about what I just said? I have not denied that those problems exist outside of Islamic lands. As human beings, we must seek to eliminate such horrible behavior no matter where it occurs. My point is that it will be impossible in Islamic lands until Muslims finally begin to realize that Muhammad wasn’t perfect by 7th century barbarian standards, much less by the standards of a modern society in the 21st century.

  93. It was fun everyone, but I’m off to bed. If someone wants to explain to me how it is that you came to the conclusion that Muhammad is the most perfect man to have ever lived, I really would be interested to hear it and will respond in the morning.

  94. If you are linking these problems inextricably to Islam, suggesting that they would go away if there were no Muslims, then you are being fallacious. Full stop. Now you moved the goalposts from the world to Islamic lands..that is sophistry sir..there are no Islamic lands, just Muslim majority countries. You are deceiving people because the accusatory tone of your posts suggests that you have read the entire Qur’an and Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim and ibn Ishaq’s Seerah in English and Arabic, instead of the little snippets you may have gleaned from biased, Islamophobic sources, completely divorced from their contexts to “prove your point”.

  95. Where the heck are those admins? Funny how he blames Islam for pedophilia (which is by far the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard) but says nothing about the Catholic church and the many small boys who became victim of priests. Do I bash the church for that? Absolutely not because I’m sure the church does not advocate that. Some loons just got mixed up in the bunch. This is all rather absurd. I’m done with the absurdity.. Have a nice life Palmer.. You are a pathetic excuse for a human being

  96. So now you are off to bed after your Islamophobic drive-by? Hmm..good nite..surveillance of Shi’a masajid anyone?

  97. John you filthy mouthed man…

    Did you read the full quran? Every page, every chapter? If you did youd see the celebration of equality and women, the stories of abraham and jesus, etc. Lemme guess you took the “bad” ayahs and considered that the Quran. Haha, read all 114 chapters. I kno your type. Ya watch bigoted news, read up on the seemingly negative aspects of Islam, and youve never met a muslim, if you have you probably pulled her hijab off or punched him.

    Taking away your freedom? What, now, have we the American Muslim communtiy done to you? Nada. I admit, much of the middle eastern government is crap, but thats why Muslim and Christians band together to figh it, to make it WORK, to get real liberty. Saudi iran afghanistan heeellll they arent even muslim. Oh yea, terrorism funds linked to saudi arabian oil companies ahem.

    Its funny your gonna tell me to go educate myself right. Im a muslim woman, of Arab descent, ive read most of the Quran, learned Islamic History since the Sumerians(they werent muslim but i have to kno who was of the fertile crescent area first). I was taught basics but i expanded. Do you kno what the Quraysh is, or the pact of madina? No of course not.

    The rape thing: thats in a war which has its own set of rules in Islam besides the servants thing. But Islam doesnt say to the muslim, hey fuck a nonmuslim girl just for the hell of it. Wtf.
    Aisha, his seemingly 9 yr old wife, was really 18. Modern science and history proves it. How else would she be older than muhammads daughter fatima, from his late wife?

    Go read the full Quran, talk to a muslim abt sonething anything, even religion, just listen to them and open your heart.

  98. Sad, but necessary.

  99. fuck all of you mother fuckers i am a muslim

  100. Where did I defend the Catholic Church and others who engage in pedophilia? I didn’t, because I don’t defend it. As I mentioned, the world is a messed up place, but as a society, we can make laws, we can educate citizens, we can progress, we can make improvements. The problem is that in an Islamic society, pedophilia can never be done away with. And why? Because Muslims believe that Muhammad is the most perfect man to have ever lived and that by doing exactly like he did, they can please their god. And so as Muslims, you could never say that it is wrong for adult men to enter into sexual relationships with 9 year old girls, for to do so would mean to admit that by today’s standards, what Muhammad did is no longer acceptable. And of course, the same goes for a host of other terrible things. And why hasn’t anyone tried to give a defense of the perfection of Muhammad’s character? I really would like to understand the mentality of someone who has analyzed Islamic scripture and concluded that Muhammad is in fact the most perfect man to have ever lived.

  101. Qul ya ayyuhal kafirun. La ‘a’budu ma t’abudun. Wa la ‘antum ‘abiduna ma ‘a’ bud. Wa la ‘ana ‘abidum ma ‘abatum. Wa la ‘antum ‘abiduna ma ‘a ‘bud. Lakum deenukum wa li-ya deen.

  102. Narrated ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him): The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said,

    “Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire.”

    (Saheeh Al Bukhari, Book # 3, Hadith # 106).

  103. Just in time for the throwing hostilities between America and Iran after Israel announced that it will attack Iran sometime within six months (although I think Israel is bluffing, since they’ve threatened Iran before). Now Shi’as could be the new Japanese-Americans of WWII. I’d imagine that they’d be monitored very heavily now. But I wonder what my Sunni friends who may not have much good to say about Shi’as think of this?

  104. So in other words Julius, you, like your intellectually bankrupt prophet, have nothing of substance to offer. You say I’m lying, but you never refute anything I say. You can’t possibly justify such a terrible human being “the most noble man to have ever lived”, so you threaten me with hell-fire. Give it up. Again, Islamic theology holds that Muhammad is the most perfect man to have ever lived. But Islamic scripture makes it clear that he was a pathetic, vile man. I therefore know that Islam is utterly false, and that any threats of hellfire that Muhammad offered are as baseless and useless as the rest of his quran.

  105. Hi vitor
    Look, muhammad didnt marry a 9 yr old. Let me explain why, one:
    1. Aisha (the alleged 9 yr old) was really 18, how else couls she be older than muhammads daughter from his late wife?
    2. In the old arab world, lots of things were counted in halves. People say Aisha was 9 but she was really 18. I know it sounds pretty funky but thats way they did things.

    And yes there are hadith about her playing with dolls and stuff. Well, one, my 15-18 cousins still play with Barbies cause theyre always bored. I think its funny but of course im probably the only one of the girls with a Mac….

    Also, its not like after her marriage she was ruined or whatever, she actually went on to be head advisor of the first four Caliphs, muhammad taught her the Quran and hadith since it was kinda revealed to him. She also studied astronomy and some medicine. She was very intelligent.

    And we believe Muhammad has the greatest character yes, because he was very kind and patient and actually advocated against war, he was the one who proposed the treaty of Hudaibiya and the pact of Medina which said that the jews of medina and the muslims would work together and be as though they were one people. Now we know Muhammad had only one sin, that being Abasa, which means he frowned. Its in the Quran. He was trying to teach this very stubborn man about Islam, he wasnt trying to convert him, just trying to teach him and the guy was just being a jerk. While Muhammad pbuh was trying to reason with him, an old blind man came up behind him and asked him if he could learn. Muhammad was frustrated already and he turned around frowning. But then he realized this was just an old man…he repented, and in the Quran it outlines all of that in surat abasa. If muhammad was as terrible a person as you think, or a liar, do you think hed tell people about this one mistake? No, obviously God sent it to show us, hey Muhammad did this but hes forgiven but look you all have to control your frustrations and not let Satan get to you.

    Our god. Do you kno what Allah means? Who uses that word? What was the religion of the preIslamic arabs? Please enlighten me.

  106. Ok Palmer, this will be the last time I respond to you. Muslims love and revere the prophet and no matter how much you try, you can never change that. We love him for reasons you can’t understand. We love him for the sake of Allah. You don’t even want to understand. He was sent as the final messenger to mankind. God thinks of you the way you think of him so if you bash any of his messengers (Moses, Jesus, etc) you will meet your doom. You see Palmer, you follow your desires and we Muslims do not. Now, looking from the outside in, a simple mind would probably feel the same way you do. Once you step inside, you get the full understanding. That’s something you haven’t done and probably never will but Allah knows best. Most people on here know that most of what you provided are flat out lies. It’s people like you who actually do us a favor. You bash, we keep the peace (most of us at least) and they research for themselves. After that, they revert. So please, continue to do Muslims a favor and spread your hate. You’re only making people see the truth about Islam. This is why Islam will continue to grow. People are going back to their roots and their roots is total submission to Allah. The whole world is against Islam and people are noticing. The more who notice are the ones who find out what the fuss is all about. You’ve made your choice a long time ago. “The truth is on the side of the oppressed” (Malcolm X)

  107. and all this from Mohammed the SELF PROCLAIMED prophet, LMAO

  108. Lol jon

    Dont some people say jesus doesnt exist, or that he was a liar? Your just like those people.

    You kno, in the Bible its prophesized that another messenger would come. When muhammad was a kid, his uncle took him to Syria, and a christian monk kept staring at little muhammad. His account
    “i saw a soft white shadow above him, as though it was shading him, and the tree he sat near to had its branches outreached to him”.
    Not only that, but Bahira the monk started talking to muhmmad. He asked about his sleep patterns, his past, everything. Then he asked his uncle, where is this boys father? The uncle wnted to protect muhammad so he said, i am the father, the monk responded, no the boys father cant be alive. (wasnt muhammads father dead? Hmm) so bahira told him to take muhammad back to mekka and shelter him saying that this child was very special.
    And when muhammad was born, his mother Amina recounted that when hd came out, this glow eminated from him.

    Why do you insist that God couldnt have sent a new prophet? God sent jesus and the jews killed him. So we kno the Jews of thhat time didnt believe in him. But seriosly both the bible and torah state a new prophet was coming. If your still waiting its hopeless the messiah comes after him.

  109. Hey jonathan teach me about the pre islamic age, teach me about abu sufyan and bilal and uthman and abu lahab and julaybib. Enlighten me. You must be a genius to go around talking like that

  110. *sigh* Why is it that these pages always get non-muslim trolls yet you never see muslims going and trolling people’s pages?

  111. @Jenna; 1) go look up the word ´trolling`.

    2) muslims and lefties are excelent trolls, i´ve come across many

  112. But that’s the thing Julius, we are changing that. As Muhammad full well knew, his “religion” couldn’t thrive in a peaceful environment with an atmosphere of open and honest discussion. Had Muhammad believed in the ability of his message to convert others through persuasion, would he have put people to death for leaving Islam? Would he have written verse 5:33 into his Quran? Of course not. He had to put people to death for leaving his cult, and he had to include a directive from “Allah” to murder people for something as vague as “making mischief” because he knew his ideas were false and weak. And that’s why Islam thrived for years. Shut down the desire for inquiry, for knowledge, threaten people with hellfire, murder those who leave Islam or criticize it. But now it’s all out in the open, and your brittle ideology is crumbling. I take great pleasure in going to websites such as apostatesofislam and reading about former Muslims who have finally investigated Islam, realized how horrible and evil it is, and gained the strength to leave it. Muslims are leaving Islam in droves, and it’ll only continue as more and more people are learning about Islam and its false prophet, and then hopefully, the day will finally come when Islam will cease to be a great power, and mankind will no longer be dragged down by this awful cult.

  113. Its funny how Jon ignores my question. Trollllllll hahaha

  114. Sounds more like the US is terrorizing people that they do not know and are to shallow to get to know…they would rather eradicate the unknown than learn from others…Pretty pathetic and sad if you ask me

  115. You can’t quote the Quran against the Muslims… lol!!

    The Quran was sent for the Muslims…

    “(those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses whom Allah has given to you,)”… means, `the slave-girls whom you took from the war booty are also permitted to you.’ He owned Safiyyah and Juwayriyah, then he manumitted them and married them.

    This just means that they are lawful to marry… who teaches you Islam Jonahthan… Ronald McDonald???

    damn…

    also…

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, “It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection”.

    Qaza’a said, “I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, “No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.””

    They married the slaves first… damn… whats wrong with you Johnathan… Marriage is what seperates us from the animals…

    Fornication is unlawful in Islam and Muhammad (pbuh) was a walking example of Islam and Quran so he did not fornicate or tell people to fornicate

  116. Vitor
    You know the people who “realize islam is bad” are usually people who had very bad experiences with islam. Like a woman who gets raped by her sadistic hubby who tries to use a quranic verse as an excuse. Or Nonie Darwish. She lived i Egypt, and everyone knows the women situation was bad there. The people she grew up around were more traditional arab then Islamic, but she put two and two together. People are raised in bad situations and in their shock confusion and anger this is what they do.

    And thats funny cause just this month 10 people converted to Islam, in my city, my mosque. There are many mosques in this city who know how many people converted elsewhere.

    Look i dont care that you hate Islam, i dont care that you think mohammad is this or that. I studied my islamic history intensely, memorized and read much of the Quran, listened to converts accounts, two of themmy teachers (one had a dream that her estranged roman catholic father-who died- was telling her continue the path she was on, and he was praying muslim style.) my mothers father died the same night i was violently sick (for a 6 month old) and i woke her up one night and i vomitted. So she fell asleep after i calmed down. She dreamt of my grandfather smiling and glowing. Then the same thing happened^^ this time she dreamed of him saying im in heaven!

    My mom was his favorite. I guess thats why he appeared to her. Anyway, mypoint is, you didnt grow up muslim, you probably dont know any muslims if you do they probably arent very smart, you just arent open minded or observant.

    And the ayah-if your speaking of the slave permitted one actually since other guys did that and muhammad didnt object it i think you can tell it wasnt only for him. Btw, he only married women older and poorer than him. Only Aisha was 18. The rest were old widows, whom he married to protect because back then lots of people targeted widows and orphans.
    Also if muhammad wrote the Quran, why would he write about this sin he committed, called abasa It was only one sin, but its one whole chapter of the Quran. The sin was that he frowned, even tho the sin was meager if muhammad may god be pleased with him is as crazed and sadistic as you say than wouldnt he want to create this godly imave of himself? But again and again the quran says, muhammad is but a humble messenger, like moses and jesus and the like. He is not to be worshipped. If he were as bad as that than certainly hed never write his own sin, right? Nice try :)

  117. Sorry image*

  118. It is futile to insult religion. Better to address present day behavior. Scripture may be endlessly interpreted and reinvented, every religion looks crazy to non believers.

    A group of imams just came out with a fatwa saying that the Koran verse beat your wife really means report her to the authorities. Ha, ha, what plasticity. It means beat for centuries and suddenly is changed to suit the modern era. Do some more of that, imams!

    Muslims are despised because they are theocratically deluded, some of them violently so,

  119. Oh jonathan

    I just explained the fact that Aisha was 18 not 9. Also, most muslim girls get married AFTER college. Show me a muslim grl you kno that is married and still too young. Also islam says you cant have sex with someone who hasnt reached puberty. Its dangerous. We kno some nuts overseas do that and worse, but do they follow real islam? No.

    From the quran
    4:1 O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.
    4:4And give the women [upon marriage] their [bridal] gifts graciously. But if they give up willingly to you anything of it, then take it in satisfaction and ease.

    O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them – perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good.
    And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free [unmarried] women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    See you can only marry a servant if you cant find another lady to marry.

  120. And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

    The girl who is raped is not to bring four witnesses its the accuser who does. If the accuser cannot, he/she is sent to prison and wriiten by god as a liar. The victim is free to do as she pleaseS

    O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straiten them m order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency, and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it.
    Proof. Eve. If for watev reason you dont like you still have to treat them good

  121. Elle, go read some news. Women in muslim countries are being imprisoned for being raped. They are blamed for being raped. Even stoned for being raped.

    It is due to the plate theory of womanhood. Man who killed his sister says she had been raped therefore she was broken, like a plate, and useless, so he shot her. He shrugs at the camera.

    You present us with theory and assume that the real world is following the ideals of your theory? Naaaaah.

    After establishing theocracies, muslim societies will be split into 1 camp thinking the more shariah the better, and a second group who spends Ramadan afternoons hiding under a bed eating sandwiches and cursing their predicament.

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