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Daisy Khan and Fazeela Siddiqui: Training Afghani Imams to End Violence Against Women

22 February 2012 Huffington Post 85 Comments Email This Post Email This Post
Daisy Khan

Daisy Khan

Training Afghani Imams to End Violence Against Women

On Nov. 17, 1999, the world witnessed a horrific image: An Afghani woman named Zarmina was dragged through a soccer stadium and killed by the Taliban. As a Muslim woman, the outrage that I felt was indescribable. Islam teaches hope, mercy and love and in no way condones the violence depicted on my television that day. The outrage that I felt propelled me to do something. Therefore, in 2005 I founded the Women’s Islamic Initiative in Spirituality & Equality (WISE) to address gender inequality in Islam.

In 2010, WISE, partnered with an Afghani WISE woman, to pilot an innovative program, the Imam Training Program to End Violence against Women (ITP), which clarifies distorted and patriarchal misinterpretations of the Quran. Through ITP, we trained 50 of the most respected imams in Jalalabad and Kabul on the five absolute rights provided to women in Islam: Education, Inheritance, Marriage, Property Ownership and Social Participation. We decided to train imams since Afghan communities deeply trust and respect them — even the Taliban.

Last month, I sent our WISE Program Manager, Fazeela Siddiqui, to Afghanistan to conduct an on-the-ground assessment of our pilot program. I was inspired by the stories that she recounted upon her return; they painted a far different picture than the tragic stories that I have continually heard. Below is a moving account of Fazeela’s field visit.

I met with many courageous Afghani men and women who value progress and are strident advocates for women’s rights. Afghanis told me that their communities are willing to partner with Americans to bring about progress, insofar as their cultural and religious mores are respected. Yet the international community (which includes American NGOs) does not work within a human rights based framework that utilizes Islamic principles. Therefore, very few NGOs have been able to traverse the proverbial Afghan cultural and religious wall to bring about social change. Conversely, by changing hearts and minds through training imams on women’s rights within an Islamic framework, we American-Muslims have been uniquely able to catalyze progressive and sustainable change in Afghanistan.

I was moved by an imam focus group that I conducted with seventeen of the most eminent imams from Kabul province. These imams graciously traveled long distances to sit with me to discuss the effectiveness and challenges of the ITP-EVW. Upon arrival, an imam who was hesitant about my presence — An American-Muslim-woman-lawyer who did not apologize for being American — looked me in the eyes with a stern face and said, “We are worried when the rights of women come from the West, from a non-Islamic perspective. We will fight against this. But, if the[se] rights come from the Quran, we welcome ideas and we will listen to what you have to say.” Concerned that I was offended, a project associate immediately leaned over and whispered in my ear, “We Afghanis are a proud people. We are one of the only nations in the world that has never been conquered. Therefore, we do not want other nations’ values imposed on us.” Another imam chimed in and said, “You only hear the most tragic stories. [These stories also] outrage and sadden us. They are inexcusable crimes that have nothing to do with Islam or our belief system. But for some reason they are viewed as the norm around the world.”

An imam who was appreciative of my presence smiled and stated, “We are a Muslim nation, we respect the Quran, yet we have a major lack of understanding of the Quran.” He further stated, “We left our original teachings, which is why we have problems … Women were deprived of their rights due to cultural and tribal rules that dominated. Through this program, we are slowly opening to a new understanding of the rights of women in Islam.” Another imam recounted a story of an elder man who had just heard the imam’s khutba (sermon) on marital rights. This man was so disturbed that he held the imam by his collar and cried, “No one can help me. Time is gone. I have committed all sorts of violence against my daughters. I took the Walwar (bride price) for each of their marriages, I stopped them from getting education and I forced them into marriages. They are suffering every day because of my wrongdoings. Why weren’t you talking about this before?” The imam replied, “It is not too late; we have a younger generation to bring up.” After hearing this, the eldest imam in the room, who appeared to be in his mid-80s, reminiscently replied, “The Quran is 1,500 years old and at the time of revelation, it was the most progressive book that addressed women’s rights. We were more advanced about women before others even thought about the issue.”

Even though the imams were familiar with women’s rights in Islam, many of them told me that through the program, their knowledge had grown and they felt equipped to discuss women’s rights with their congregations — despite receiving death threats. The imam who was hesitant with me in the beginning of the meeting had kept silent for the majority of our two hour meeting. Right when we were ready to end, he decided to speak again and said, “In the beginning, congregants would stand up in the middle of Friday khutbas on women’s rights and scream, ‘You are propagating Western words.’ But we stood our ground and responded, ‘These are not western words, this comes directly from the Quran and Hadith.’ This program gave us courage. It helps to know that all of us imams are doing this at the same time.” The hesitant imam ended the meeting by reassuring me, “If you are truly willing to work within the framework of Islam, with no ulterior agenda, we are truly excited to work with you.” He then smiled at me and said a prayer — “May all Muslim women around the world find their united voice in equality as provided by our faith.”

We are increasingly trusted since we are able to meet Afghanis where they are at, honoring and working within their traditions. For example, instead of staying at a compound or hotel, Fazeela was invited to stay at an Afghani home throughout her trip. The American public often asks what the American-Muslim community is doing to end violent extremism and change the situation of women in Afghanistan. Here is our answer. Fazeela’s trip confirms that Islam is not the enemy, extremism is. American-Muslims can traverse the formidable walls that have been built by religious fallacies. We can do this by addressing misinterpretations of our faith while simultaneously exploring its beauty and strengths. While viewing pictures and listening to Fazeela recount her Afghanistan trip, my team and I looked at each other across the board room table and we were speechless. We wondered why our country has failed to implement similar programs and utilize its best asset — American-Muslims. Which brings me back to Fazeela’s field notes:

After the imam focus group ended, I sat in the program office to drink tea and hovered over a space heater for warmth (Nothing could have prepared me for the frigid weather in Afghanistan, not even growing up in Buffalo, N.Y.). While looking over my notes a program officer looked up from his computer and said, “The U.S. government should not have spent billions [on the war], they should have spent millions and involved the imams [with regards to women's rights] and everything would have been different today.” He then wistfully looked into the distance, shook his head and went back to work.

Follow the Women’s Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equality on Twitter:@wisemuslimwomen.

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85 Comments »

  1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16787534

    “Islam teaches hope, mercy and love and in no way condones the violence depicted on my television that day.” really? maybe she was an adulteress. did they stone her to death. isn’t that justice? daisy needs to brush up on some of her hadiths.

  2. Glad that Daisy is making herself useful instead of bestowing her stupid supremacist ideas on NYC.

    Quit being chicken muslims sitting in the west yapping at the police and go over to those places and help.

    There were or are groups in Pakistan that were taking imams aside and telling them just what a sorry fix their country is in and how they could be a help instead of a hindrance.

  3. Very interesting and informative.

  4. The Taliban are extreme religious fanatics – some of which we see in our own Christian faith…

  5. Awesome! She is living Islam – there is a hadeeth (saying by the Prophet-Peace & blessings upon him) that when you see something wrong you must change it, if you cannot then at least say it is wrong, then if you cannot at least know in your heart it is wrong, but this is the least of faith. SHE IS AWESOME because she was brave and took action! May God bless her and all the people who attended her training seminars.

  6. Extremist, but for what reason is this an issue 13 years later? more propaganda?

  7. “what reason is this an issue 13 years later?” Because it still exists.

  8. No it doesn’t. Zarmina killed her husband in his sleep. Bashed his head in with a hammer. No one cares to mention that.

  9. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17123464

    Cindy Sullivan via Facebook

    “The Taliban are extreme religious fanatics – some of which we see in our own Christian faith” i don’t know of any christian fanatics who have taken control of a country? who have the support necessary to take control of a county? when’s the last time a woman was dragged to an execution by a christian, for christian doctrine? what was she executed for? islam is in and of itself full of draconian law and punishment. you should read the koran. and make sure not to burn it. jk you can burn it if you want, just not in a muslim dominated country.

    maybe that woman was walking around in the a bikini spreading corruption?

    5:33

    إنما جزاء الذين يحاربون الله ورسوله ويسعون في الأرض فسادا أن يقتلوا أو يصلبوا أو تقطع أيديهم وأرجلهم من خلاف أو ينفوا من الأرض ذلك لهم خزي في الدنيا ولهم في الآخرة عذاب عظيم

    Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

  10. The execution was crude but no different than the scores of executions in Texas, many of them women. So where is the activism for women’s rights in the USA? Hypocrisy.

  11. The word is ‘Afghan’ not ‘Afghani.’ Afghani is the name of the currency used in Afghanistan.

  12. Oh US always fokeeee !

  13. Shibli – why did she kill her husband? It is rare for a woman to kill a good husband. Even if he was asleep, if he was hurting her and her kids it could have been self-defense. Do you have any web links to more details about her case?

  14. It’s a shame that now our Muslim women are being hijacked and working for the enemy against our faith. If you commit a crime, be ready to be punished for the crime. Sorry we are not morons who feed them, cloth them, and give them rights.

  15. Shibli, please. Women have more rights on a bad day in the US on a bad day than Afghanistan on a good day.

  16. Rachel..please muslim have more rights than any other woman on the planet….seems like you just cant help your self with all your hate, what do you have against Islam and muslim womens rights??? I am very pleased with my rights as a muslim woman, you need to learn before you go wagging that nasty tongue of yours.

  17. Ohh please…That ladies are trying to end a violence against woman,and they are doing it with help of Imams (Did you actually read the article?)….so where for God sake did you see “working for the enemy against our faith”…I agree with Shylon.

  18. And three women have been executed in Texas since 1900. Not “scores “.

  19. “Rachel OKelley” darling you are soooooo ignorant…educate your self a little about Islam and Woman rights in Islam…It’s people who do wrong,kill and torture.Not Islam.You seem to be perfectly “brainwashed” with media anti-Islam propaganda.

  20. Mona lmao. Rofl. Lol. Not allowed to drive. Not allowed to vote. Not allowed to travel alone. Not allowed to dress as she pleases. Not allowed to convert. Not allowed to choose who she marries. Honor killings. Yeah, such ‘freedom” . Tell me when you get off the crack pipe.

  21. Shylon he probably deserved it.

  22. I like shylon. She’s got some sense.

  23. Rachel where does it say I cant drive, vote, dress how I please? that is traditional bull crap that has no place in Islam, I work, I dress how I know God wants me to dress and I can be any religion I want, and let me make one thing clear to you, I am way to good to do crack, and why would you say that to me??? oh yeah I forgot you are just plain rude and I will NEVER tell anyone to stop being mean to you again, you deserve all the crap that is dished out to you!

  24. What you are talking about is male chauvinism …Not Islam…Please don’t generalize ;)

  25. Seda, Rachel is just graping at straws she does not have a clue about Islam, we just let her be our little troll.

  26. Mona apparently you don’t live in a muslim country, otherwise you’re purposely lying.

  27. Seda, islam is male chauvinism. Its a religion founded on hatred of women. Islam doesn’t allow women equal status.

  28. Muslim country….there you go again)))) Obviously you don’t get it :) your mind is blocked.

  29. Rachel I live in the U.S. and either way you just spread hate, there are millions YES millions of women abused by there husbands daily here, but we never mention that they are christian (or not muslim) hummm why is that?????

  30. THIS MUST STOP!

  31. we have stupid Imams(or want to be imam’s) in Islam just like any other faith.

  32. :)Rachel it’s not smart to tell such a thing to an Muslim …For I know better then you what my religion is ;) It’s sad that you think such a way about Islam,but you have your way,and I have my way(and brains))) May Allah have mercy with you and as All .

  33. Mona she won’t get it anyways ;) just ignore ;)

  34. Rachel OKelley – I lived in a Muslim country for nearly 25 years. What Mona N Jamal Affaneh says is true. Of the 50 plus Muslim countries in the world, Saudi Arabia is the only one that has a law against women driving. In the country where I lived (and another one I visited for a while) women drove cars, taxis, buses, motorcycles – you name it. Women had the right to their own property, to conduct business and to inherit in Islam 14 centuries ago, while in Europe and much of North America, they did not achieve these rights until the 20th century. (Some women conducted business, but they did not have legal rights to the money or the property they earned – these legally belonged to their husbands or nearest male relative – not so in the Islamic world.) Dress codes are enforced to a greater or lesser extent in some countries, and not in others. There are only a few countries where it is actually law, rather than custom. In Turkey, women are not allowed to enter public buildings while wearing the hijab (they must uncover). As for the other matters you mentioned – it depends on where you are, but tradition and Islam are not always the same thing. Rachel, in the 1940s around 120,000 law-abiding citizens of your country were forced out of their homes, herded into stables and then into internment camps, purely and simply because they looked like the people who bombed Pearl Harbour. You would be well advised to guard your mind from the same kind of thinking.

  35. Seda, muslim nations don’t allow women equal status. That’s not mind blocking that’s proveable fact. Do you know anything about REAL Islam and not bs sugar coated crap?

  36. Mona! Lol. So you do live in the US. That’s why you have rights not bc of your religion. In Muslim country you wouldn’t be allowed to drive, vote or wear what you want. Thanks for proving my point.

  37. Er… Did you read my post, Rachel? Which one of us has lived in a Muslim country? You or me?

  38. equal status? muslim nations have had 4 female prime ministers (thats equal power has our president rachel) and yet our dear old USA has yet to see a female vice president. hmmmm……..

  39. these trolls have selective amnesia. let’s try again. rachel, saudi arabia is the only country where women can’t drive. the rest of 50 or more islamic nations women do drive and vote. sheesh!!

  40. Rachel, did you read Linda’s post??

  41. Linda, that is just Rachel being Rachel, she wont listen to anything we have to say she just keeps spewing garbage and knows nothing about Islam or what it takes to be a human being! I bet she is a “foreigner” and does not know it….LOOOOOOL

  42. There was a time when people of Rachel’s ethnic origin were, in fact, treated like foreigners in their own countries. Only recently has the story of the “Trail of Tears” become fully exposed, and the Irish once starved to death by the thousands because their principal food crop failed, but they were still forced to export food to England, and did not even have full fishing rights in their own country. How ironic that someone of mixed Cherokee and Irish background should now subscribe to exactly the same kind of thinking as the oppressors of her ancestors.

  43. I have no Idea what her background is, I have native Americans and Irish in my family and Thank God Almighty they don’t act like her!

  44. Ladies, I think she is just to young and do not know what she is talking about right now:)I hope she really sees the message here,and Rachel,- we are Muslim and we are not oppressed nor are we forced to follow Islam..So Please…don’t fight,just open up a bit girl ;)

  45. Mike malzhan

    What about Christians who will people besides their own kind

    Nazis
    Or Andres Brevik

    Or Israelis who will kill any Arab despite religion

  46. Shylon

    Do you know how Phil Hartman died. Wife went cuckoo and shot him then herself.

  47. At least she wasn’t beaten to death by Christians and left to die tied to a fencepost in the boonies. That would have been really bad. Maybe we need a regime change in Wyoming.

  48. Are you referring to the murder of Matthew Shepard? That was terrible.

  49. elle,

    you are saying the nazis rose to power on christian principles? pretty sure the where athiest. giving us athiest a bad name no doubt. many of the higher up where into the occult though. anyways i never understand this “what about the christians/jews/hindus/buddist/whoever” deflection thing. the point is that islam, along with the other abrahamics has poorly structured principles and ideals.

    Shibli Zaman,

    “The execution was crude but no different than the scores of executions in Texas, many of them women. So where is the activism for women’s rights in the USA? Hypocrisy.” don’t think i would say no different. but yes if you execute someone they are no less dead if you us leathal injection or a bullet to the brain or a bunch of stones or hot pokers to the eyes and cut off their hands and feet or crucify them. although the last four are going to be a little, just a smidge more painful. anyways the real difference is in that fact that we have trails, a jury of your peers. as Ahmed Mohamed points out we give the accused the moronic right to defend themselves. the 5th amendment, miranda rights, and the right to a lawyer. as for activist for women’s rights in america, i’m not sure what part of the world youare in, but we have thousands of organizations (at local state and federal levels) working to protect and expand women’s rights. guess you’ve never heard of NOW or the ERA? more to this case we have this concept of battered spousal syndrome. here’s some lite reading for ya. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_woman_defense

    “The courts in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, United Kingdom, and United States have accepted the extensive and growing body of research showing that battered partners can use force to defend themselves and sometimes kill their abusers because of the abusive and sometimes life-threatening situation in which they find themselves, acting in the firm belief that there is no other way than to kill for self-preservation. The courts have recognized that this evidence may support a variety of defenses to a charge of murder or to mitigate the sentence if convicted of lesser offenses.”

  50. warning, isn’t the mirror a western news paper, british? this is no doubt western proganda. just trying to make the taliban look bad as they impose god’s law.

    http://www.rawa.org/zarmeena2.htm

  51. Shibli Zaman,

    you should realy try google sometime. here’s an umbrella group that has about 100 members? didn’t count them all but should average 5 per letter of the alphabet. A 9american), N 9national) and W (women’s) have the most names if you want to check them out.

    http://www.womensorganizations.org/index.php?option=com_azcontentlist&Itemid=31

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Women's_political_advocacy_groups_in_the_United_States

    just down the street from my house is a CASA house. that stands for Center Against Spousal Abuse. locally we also have The Spring, which deals with battered women.

  52. Bigotry is pervasive among those with low intelligence/education. Rachel Okelley is a prostitute with a high school education.

  53. Mike calm down, i didnt say that.

    But i read a letter a Nazi squad/group wrote saying that their “holy hate” would save them and the world from Jews’ barbaric, backwards ways. That Jesus would come back and love them for it. Many used Christianity as a guise for their insaniity.

    Just like the “Muslims” do now. They arent as bad as Nazis…but they still abuse the light God gave us.

  54. Mike
    Islam doesnt endorse the beating of women, and you know it. Usually whwn a muslim is battered by her husband its because he felt she may have disrespected him, not done her job as a wife, or just flat out crazy. Its whwn the man is on the defensive that he uses the Quran as an excuse. Dont they say every ignorant bigot will bring a bible verse to back themselves up? Same goes for Muslims. Blaming God for Their own actions.

  55. elle,

    what makes you think i’m anything but calm? in fact a lot of people i know describe me as the most lethargic person they know. yes i realize that many religious peolpe (not just muslims) use their interpretation of their “holy” texts to justify their barbaric actions. that’s why i say we should all agree to abandon said texts. the curse of ham or canaan, manifest destiny, the fact that none of the abrahamic prophets ever bothered to say you shouldn’t enslave people. and where did i say anything about muslim being allowed to beat their wives? i mean it is in the koran, you know 4:32? on is :34? put yes i’ve been told that that is only a symbolic tap on the wrist. but see that is my point exactly elle. the koran says one thing yet seems to mean another. you once said you love reading the koran and researching the verses and the history. you know 8:12 says lay in ambush for them strike at their necks, cut off ever finger tip…..whatever. no you may have the resources at hand to know that that is supposedly a command to the angels in the battle of badr. ok, do you think the average afghan/afghani has the same resources at hand? roits again over a book being burned? and speaking of womens right, ladies. how can someone who can only inherit half as much as a man claim to have the most women’s rights on the planet? see elle when you command that men are the protectors and maintainers of women it creates an environment where women are seen as a liability. did you see the bangladeshi who cut off his wives fingers for going to law school against his wishes? how about the riot last year over the bangladeshi government trying to give equal inheritance to women? were you around for the story of the maldives girl in the koran reciting contest? so if you have limited rescource in an impoverished, war torn nation, who do you educate first? boys or girls? luckily there are no impoverish war torn islamic nations. sorry couldn’t resist? my god (that’s just a saying) so many pronouns without antecedents, no wonder i get called ignorant so much. perhaps one of the enlightened ladies about can shed some light on my confusion? 2 female witnesses to one man. elle you said women are unclean when menstrating and therefore can’t pray, and therefore aren’t in touch with god as much as men? do i remember that right. sorry got to go. again though, what’s with the deflection, christian this, so what i’m an athiest. plus i love when muslim post about how moses killed an entire tribe on god’s order. lol that’s your god!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16201961 meddlesome human rights groups. hypocrates why aren’t there any in america!

  56. Mike

    Let me tell you as to why I believe in God.
    I point out different skin colors to people. I tell them it’s a sign of God. They say ” no it’s just more or less Melanin inthe skin.” i point out languages, Arabic and Hebrew sounding so alike, how all languages are so universal and beautiful and lyrical in their own ways. How the Quran, Bible, and Torah were originally written in the three semitic lamguages. If it were writren by man, it would have originally come in latin or a language of the anglosaxons, because of white supremacy.

    The quran emphasizes the fact that people were made with different cultures, so we could come together, and learn from each other.

    i point out the stripes on a watermelon and they say it’s just how it grows. I point out the uniqueness of each snowflake. The fluffy perfection of a cloud. How baby birds instinctively jump out of the nest because God orders them to finally fly. A baby clings to his mother. That invisible attraction science can’t explain. How every eyelash, pore, and tooth naturally function without stimulation because it LIVES. When a person dies, their soul leaves the body. When a person is living,
    they have a soul.

    Everything has a purpose. Everything hangs inbalance ever so perfectly…

    That’s why i know God is out there. Why im muslim and not Christian or jewish? Thats for another time.

    “aren’t allowed that connection to God”
    In the Quran, it says a mother’s duty is an act of worship. So she is praising God in her heart and God is rewarding her for caring fof her child or sibling or studying or doing something productive because everything is an act of worship. Also, we Muslims have a different kind of prayer that is verbal only. Called duaa. Its supplication. Regualr salah is slightly different because when you do salah your praising God and Muhamad and Abraham, and bowing down to God. Duaa is directly askig God for something. Women can do that anytime, they can also do this thing called salat al istikhara, and another where something good happens and you immediatley bow down to God anywhere you are and you thank him. Its just the physical burden God frees us with. Do you know how good Ifeel when i wake up late and immediatley think “crap i missed Thuhr!” then i remember im on my cycle and go “yes! I can paint my nails now!” im not evena mom, or married, there arent many burdens i have to carry, but i feel relieved because it is tough to remember to pray all the time on time. But i still enjoy it.

    And you know what. They are going back to culture, it was islam that brought the Arab world out of the darkness: not educating their women, loving everyone of every race, forced marriages, female infanticide, etc. But a sign of the day of Judgement is exactly this. Reverting back to tribalism, reverting back to ignorance. I wouldnt blame Islam cuz they were already doing it, they just point to it and say see now its allowed.

    And ugh. Ignorance. There was a muslim guy on facebook on the Islamophobia page and you know Rachel that dumbass was trolling as usual and this muslim guy starts mouthing off and at first i understood why he was so upset with her but then he called her “a jesus freak so fukn stupid and according to the Talmud, Mary was a whore”

    I was absolutely appalled. I told the guy that we believe in Jesus and Mary. He called the most beloved of all women to God a whore. I told him Mary had her own Surah, and that bad mouthing a prophet and his sacred mother to protect your religion is sick and hed better repent. No answer. Next day, same thing happened. They dont seem to realize that were the one religion that connects the three together. Judaism claims to be perfect and that Mary who was one of their own was a whore and that Jesus was no son of God or prophet. Christians deny that Isaac and joseph and Jesus were all Jews and they deny the Bible when it says a new prophet will come. Aka mohammad. Theyre just stupid. Its embarassing. Like a Palestinian muslim said muslims are supposed to hate Jews. Does it say in the Quran to? No. It was political but because of her parents and history she was lead to believe that.

  57. Rachel! Thats the whole point! The countries are corrupted they arent following Islam correctly!

    Islam says a woman can:
    Abort her child if she was raped and impregnated.
    Choose IF she wishes to get married.
    Get married to who she pleases.
    Not have to pray when on her period.
    If she gers raped is given immediate synpathy andmoney to gather her life together.
    Own a business.
    Have her own caravan and horses (a car haha)
    Not be forced to wear the hijab
    Sing
    Talk openly in council/ public place.
    Serving in the army
    A right to an education
    Not being put on a level lower than male relatives
    A right to clothing, shelter andsustainance from her gaurdian.

    A daughter is the gateway to heaven for her father if he treats her well. Muhammad and his child Fatima. Perfect example

    Explain why my female cousins in Jordan and going to college and not being married by force and my male siblings are all practically working on fields.

  58. Its old culture that Saudi Arabia and Iranand Afghanistan are following. And I cantwait till god rains on their sick parade.

  59. In story after story – If she gets raped she is likely to be imprisoned or shot. You are going by the ideal, the ideal rarely exists in real life. That is why it is called the ideal and not the real.

    In a theocracy, like SA, Iran, etc. you are not submitting to Allah. You are submitting to some goons who think they are Allah. They interpret and invent the religion to suit themselves. That is why so often a muslim will say hey, that’s not Islam.

    For example, at this time there is a pastor in Iran been in prison over 800 days and is waiting to be executed because he converted to Christianity. That is the real.

  60. Anon, the ideal exists and it is called Islam. If we implemented it correctly, it would be beautiful. There’s so many obstacles to that right now, including the hypocrites among the Muslims. But, you see, the ideal IS Islam so Islam-bashing is useless. We should simply bash crimes for what they are… crimes. Generalizing and putting the blame on the most perfect religion (which also includes with it a framework for progress and not simply traditional interpretation at all times; ie. Ijtihaad… you should read about that) with faithful adherents that number over a billion of the earth’s inhabitants and is still growing is disgusting. No, actually, I’d say it’s Satanic.

    It is the very definition of Satan’s intentions. He wants humans to plunge themselves into Hell fire and the best way to do it is for them to malign God and His Messengers, peace be upon them. Then he loves to get those who don’t do that and actually believe to bicker over petty things until they form their own religions separate from the true one God revealed. That’s what’s happening in the Muslim world right now. If you want to change that anon, how about you stop spreading your hatred in this comment section, testify that God is One and Muhammad IS His final Messenger… then go and spread the truth about this faith among those who have fallen from it. If not, stay out of the way for those of us who are trying.

    It’s that simple. Your hatred only adds fuel to the rage that exists in the ignorant minority who are trying to label their crimes as Islamic. You only give them more ammo to justify it. The killing that is going on by the technologically advanced weaponry used by Western armies does the same thing.

  61. All religions are the ideal, it’s just that people have different versions of the ideal. Face the fact that people believe different things.

    Raped women have been flogged, imprisoned, executed, for the crime of being raped in muslims countries.

    Theocracy kills. Kills people, kills invention, kills culture, kills the past, kills the future.

  62. Anon
    So you’re agreeing with us.
    Then why are you fighting us?

  63. Elle, you are too young.

    Ro, each person believes that his religion is the most perfect one. Some believe that all religion is antique nonsense. Under theocracy in fact, the religion is likely to become damaged and discarded because the injustices that arise under it will be be blamed on the religion and not on the gov.

    In Iran, some have turned to Christianity perhaps just for the relief. What a relief it must be not to be in a howling sweat over the messes going on in islam.

    Justice is hard to come by under any system but in a theocracy those in power think they speak for God.

  64. I dont like that ageism crack

    Ive seen a very evil world outside and i learned all about it. Im more mature than you could even believe

  65. It is insane to claim perfection of system when you have been creating one hellhole after another. Muslims are bogged down in murderously intolerant tribalism. So fix that before you brag to the kuffar of your perfections.

  66. Anon
    My personal perfections, no one is perfect, but i try. And im not saying im better than you i just dont like being called young and stupid.
    Thats the whole point of the revolutions. And living here. Here we excersice our religion easily and in peace. Thats the wholepoint of Islam. Live in harmony with others.

    You cant dump that responsibility on us alone. The US and Israel have either bombed or have military bases in each country in the middle east, fueling the war and killing us and making them angry. Its also your fault, too. Just cause im from their doesntmean i should be held responsible. I was 7 during 9/11, and I got Hell for it.. Not really fair to keep dumping shit on all of us.

  67. Maybe the solution is point out that human rights are in the Koran. As it says in the article here, when someone starts yelling that rights are western ideas point out that they are not.

  68. Lol Anon as youve seen with that thing Rachel it doesnt always work. People will either
    1. Mix up the actions of the Mid East and the actual religion together (rachel)
    2. Have violent ideas about what to do with Muslims (mickey)
    3. Call me a liar and say im practicing Taqiyyah (not even pronounced right-wendy, jonathan list goes on and on)
    4. Or like you still blame us for killing everyone and say its our fault our lives suck.

    Some just wont LISTEN. Oh well. Allah said he will guide or lead astray anyone he pleases

  69. That is not the solution when dealing with us, as the article says, it is the solution perhaps in dealing with the oppressive elements in muslim societies.

    Shirin Ebadi was of the opinion that all these rights existed in islam, they just had to be drawn out by interpretation.

    She had to flee Iran, the mullahs were going to kill her, she later found out she and her husband were on a hit list for eating during Ramadan days.

    Separate church and state. If you can’t do that at once, at least use Koran interpretation to assert some rights.

    Under a theocracy sins become crimes, and then capital crimes.

    We don’t like muslims because they support a violent faction trying to establish a worldwide theocracy.

  70. Anon
    Not many do anon

    Lol but thats it, i fought with three Muslim guys over the rights of women, and believing in Jesus and they brushed me off. A little nonviolent help would be appreciated.

    eating during Ramadan? Shes not fasting for the gov its for God wtf im sorry unless she was on her period/sick/ pregnant she honestly should’ve been fasting. I fasted inPalestine while crossing the bridge between there and Jordan and i was dripping in sweat, and tired from travelling all day (the Quran says to break your fast if you want during travel) and i made it. I dont like what thr authorities did to her for it, but not fasting? C’mon man. If your following something because it happens to be a law and not Gods order than stfu this is probably her wordly punishment so she doesnt suffer in the grave.

  71. Think about it. Why would non muslims want to see muslims in their country?

    The message is: you are an inferior creature and we want you to live under our laws, which permit us to murder, attack or otherwise harrass you, plus demanding a monetary tribute.

    Shirin Ebadi’s book is interesting. I wonder if they will kill the pastor for choosing Christianity.

  72. People loose their faith in religion, she and her husband had perhaps ditched Islam by that time.

  73. You mean a jizia? It goes back to them? Feeds the poor, builds schools etc. Here we dont really know where our taxes are going. Israel, war, etc. And its less then 2.5 %, which is the Zakat payment Muslims make. Think it wouldnt be fair to Muslims if non muslims to pay (although its a religious law) and nonmuslims not to, with a muslim gov…

    And you do know they arent supposed to. Unless a non muslim american sees King Abdullah walking down the street of NYC they have no right to criticize. I dont think “dirty kafir” everytime i see a non muslim, alright? Actually most Muslims dont say that…anyways Most non muslims dont even bother to learn the difference between now and long ago.
    Ok but then she says follow Islam correctly treat women this way be real muslims but then she abandons one of the most basic islamic doctrines? What is up with people these days? I agree with the feminist views…..errrGah.
    I hope not.

  74. *didnt have to

  75. Feed the poor and build schools? Tell that to the urchins of the ME.

    Muslims have established countries where non muslims are being killed and harrassed with impunity. You are biding your time here until you can do the same.

    For years, ME refugees have been coming here and telling us their sad stories.

    Shirin started out saying that rights could be found in Islam, but she may have abandoned the religion. Or maybe it was a lie they had cooked up against her, I forget.

    I have read that in Iran they are having a hard time getting some people to “maintain the appearance of Islam”.

  76. elle,

    yeah i’ve been told nature is proof of god. don’t know if you remember or ever saw, but as i’ve said, i went to 12 years of catholic school. they start telling you like in the 3rd grade, that proof of god is all around you. sorry, i’m not buying it. “perfect balance”? then why extinction? i’ll go to page one of the atheist handbook, why disease? earthquakes, hurricanes, tidalwaves, etc? perfect, don’t get me started on how imperfect the world is, especially (god’s greatest creation) the human body. what a terrible design we are. can’t even fly. what’s up with dat??????? as for languages, the closer people are to each other the more similair their languages, generally. if who ever wrote the books, if they didn’t speak latin, they would write in their native tongues. don’t follow your point at all? so how many birds do you think die “jumping” out of nests prematurely? any? “instinctive” i see you no student of john locke? so you are a proponent of Abu Hāmed Mohammad ibn Mohammad al-Ghazzālī? better be careful. he was shia, with sufi leanings. “Everything has a purpose” fire does burn the cotton, allah has nothing to do with it? no everything is random. although fractals may prove me wrong. sorry i get off on tangents sometimes. anyways did you ever see the video of a mother elephant stomp on its new born’s head? back on the one halal food article you said preditors go for the neck to kill their game mercifully. did you see the video’s i posted. nature is brutal. a lion goes for the throat so it doesn’t get kicked in the head. no need to worry about that witha hippo, they ate it hind quarters first, alive. as for a watermelons stripe, i have no theory. what, maybe the stripes are camouflage when it is small and doesn’t have seeds yet. then as it grows they spread out allowing animals to more easily see it. then they can come eat it and spread the seeds.

  77. Zarmina killed her husband while he was sleeping by smashing an hammer to his head. Her execution was “right” even by some US states. These feminist whores in the articles cant “train” no Imam about anything.

  78. Mike
    Then why camouflage. Its a fruit.

    Its true. But think about it, if we could allll fly or have super strength the world WOULD be imbalanced. Id have a sky accident with a vulture. Not fun. I can barely drive without scaring the shit out of my passenger. Almost got hit by a jeep, if it hadnt been for my dad id be dead right now. Anywayssss, ugh your atheist logic pisses me off lol. Everything goes extinct. Soon humans will too. Called the day of Judgement. It shows only God is the true everlasting. Plus, would you like to run in with a Trex? Didnt think so. It was for our safety of they really existed. Tsunamis and the like, to show Gods power, and also his mercy. He takes away both good and bad people when a disaster hits. Taking a good seed away so they go straight to heaven before sinning big time.

    Thats the scientific reasoning, cuz a lion could get the gazelle from her side, sure she cant bend her legs back and forth that far to kick him in the schnozze. And the baby birds, not all animals are meant to live. Like miscarriages. And tragedies like death and illness and people who ask “whyyy” its because God has to test you. He already knows if youll still be faithful by then, but you dont. Like ill be in hell but i wont know why, unless ive lived and proved to God i couldnt be faithful.
    And do not give me that relativity and gravity bs. What caused gravity to come to be? And wait wat imperfections? Look how our little hearts can keep us alive by pumping so fast and never tiring, thats the ultimate race. Our brain? How everything is stored so perfectly and so interestingly. Ecven our seemingly useless pancreas controls the level of insulin our bodies have. Cmon, because of disease you think were not perfect or even cool? I was born with tuberous sclerosis and Allah was there for me. I think you need to have a talk withhim.
    http://scienceislam.com/

  79. And ive seen the spider eating her mates head, ive seen the rat mother pounce on her baby, all animals have animalistic tendencies…dur. But then look at how a mother will protect her offspring, will fight and kill for it. Thats mercy. On the baby i mean, not the intruder

  80. Look at your hands. Lots of marks on their right? But two main ones on each palm right?

    Left: ٨١
    Right:١٨

    Square in the middle. Muhahaha im excited to see your answer Mikey. It will blow your mind

  81. Anyways, you said nothing is planned. Things are random.

    Ok. Pregnancies.
    A woman has unprotected sex.
    The sperm attaches to her egg.
    Fertilized egg becomes a zygote,Then a fetus, aka pregnany. Was that not planned? Maybe not to the lady

    Good grade on a final exam
    Study
    Study
    Binge eat on thyme and bread(me, thyme gives you brain power)
    Study
    Sleep for an hour
    Pass the exam

    Everything you did to prepare (synonym for plan!) for that test was written there. It was going to happen, meant to be.

    It’s like dominoe effect. This falls, then something falls after and so on, and what do you do with dominoes, set em up, duh!

    Also, history says the semitic languages were the first to make their debut. Then Jesus spoke aramaic, Moses hebrew, Mohammad arabic. Just cause you were raised Catholic doesnt mean the Bible was too. Ha. Sorry, but Latin came after the RCs and GOs split.

  82. elle,

    your starting to worry me. i clearly say the camouflage is to keep the fruit from being eating before the seeds have a chance to develop. just a theory, i’m no botanist. no point in a monkey running away with a seedless watermelon. you know the japanesse are growing square watermelons? easier to cut. speaking of improvement on god’s poor designs, did you see that a double amputee set the human land speed record. but they won’t give it to him. his manmade carbon fiber feet give him a mechanical advantage. they wold let him in the olympics either. too many bones in the feet in my opinion. ever break a toe? sorry i was speaking more towards nature as being random. yes humans plan and carry out their plans quite often. if a boulder falls down the side of a mountain and just misses your car, it’s not because an angel or god made it miss, that was just it’s random path. whether the sperm impregnates the egg is very random. women don’t get pregnant everytime they have sex. at least i hope not. which sperm with it’s particular dna is random. these things matter not. you keep your faith in whatever force you wish. just don’t try to limit my liberty with your laws. it’s bad enough the christians already do it.

    ok, i’m looking at my hands. if you’re saying the lines spell allah. i can see that. the life line and the head line kind of form an A. it’s even kind of crossed by the fate line. well now it kind of looks like a witch’s hat to me. wait now it’s a sail. the heart lines could be Ls. first i hand my hands pinky to pinky and the lines look like an entrance to a buddist shrine. but yeah if you overlap your fingers, actually interlock them and hold your hands parrell to the ground you kind of get an AllA. are u saying god is spelling his name in my hands. why english? shouldn’t it be in arabic script?

    but your awesome elle, you keep on fighting the good fight.

    Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.
    Vince Lombardi

    Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/vince_lombardi_2.html#ixzz1nhG3NXaG

    just hit me, another reason not to cut off a thieve’s hand, u eliminate halfof alla????

  83. No, you worry me. Mike. Of course, it grows and serves a specific purpose to the World. We eat it, gives us energy. Cirle of Lifeeee sorry i just watched the Lion King again <3 it

    Ok, randomness. But there are people who die "randomly"?. No. When the autopsy is complete, something shows up, hemorrhage, disease, accident etc. What causes these things? Not just the extra whit blood cells or a hit to the head, if we were all like this wed be dropping like flies. Theres a reason why some of us die and some dont.

    And the boulder? It didnt hit the guy but maybe it crushed an animal or plant down below. Just wasn't your time. And in tje Dome of the Rock, Muslims visit to see this amazing boulder that's been held there BYITSELF for years after it tried to follow Muhammad into the sky. The muslims built a small barrier around it so no one would jump on it or make it fall. I prayed in the little room underneath it, still looks like a room from 1400 yrs ago. Muhammads footprints=preserved, proof he made that journey! Al Israa wal Miraj.

    Imperfections: first off if your gonna think you know about God and his non existence, then you should know that his existence means total control. Man made…stainless steel, made of nickel iron and tin, who created them all? Paper comes from trees, God made… Even if you dont believe in him, at least know that hypothetically speaking he has all control. And listen, if life was wonderful, no disease or war or pain or suffering, it would be heaven. No one would bother coming to God and asking for things or whatever. God's existence would be useless. Thats why theres both good and bad to make it known that life is imperfect, and we find solace in God because hes eternal.

    You grew up listening to Jesus son of God Jesus the Savior etc. You're thinking in the mind of an ex Catholic. I do agree, jesus being the son of God is impossible. If God is eternal, why is Jesus born and dead? And shouldnt Jesus like any child inherit a racial trait, or background. White kids look like their parents, arabs like theirs etc. To place God as a gender, and race annoys me.

    And no. I broke my middle finger once when i was 7. Cuz i fell backwards.

    And anyways, no. But speaking of Arabic script…

    The ٨١ means 81. Its numerals! And ١٨ is 18. Add those and you get 99. Who has 99 names? Allah. Alrahman arahim. Al malik. Alkudoos. Al aziz. Al Jabbar, etc.

    And once i looked at my hand and the lines spelled:
    احمد and thats between the ١٨
    That says Ahmed, synonymous to Mohammad.
    محمد، محمود.
    Those say Mohammad and Mahmoud, if you ever see those on your hands…lol. But thats cool. Seeing Alla in your hands.

    Lol liberty has a price. Thats why there are laws, but Islam also says to have fun, and I dont mean church picnic fun.

  84. Lol but Allah is already there. You have a soul. The hand becomes a stump, doesnt mean the soul has a stump too

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