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Salon.com: The causes of the protests in Afghanistan

29 February 2012 Salon 76 Comments Email This Post Email This Post
Afghans carry a protester injured during an anti-U.S. demonstration in the northern city of Kunduz. (Ezatullah Pamir, Associated Press)

Afghans carry a protester injured during an anti-U.S. demonstration in the northern city of Kunduz. (Ezatullah Pamir, Associated Press)

The causes of the protests in Afghanistan

BY GLENN GREENWALD

(updated below)

Most American media accounts and commentary about the ongoing violent anti-American protests in Afghanistan depict their principal cause as anger over the burning of Korans (it’s just a book: why would people get violent over it?) — except that Afghans themselves keep saying things like this:

Protesters in Kabul interviewed on the road and in front of Parliament said that this was not the first time that Americans had violated Afghan cultural and religious traditions and that an apology was not enough.

This is not just about dishonoring the Koran, it is about disrespecting our dead and killing our children,” said Maruf Hotak, 60, a man who joined the crowd on the outskirts of Kabul, referring to an episode in Helmand Province when American Marines urinated on the dead bodies of men they described as insurgents and to a recent erroneous airstrike on civilians in Kapisa Province that killed eight young Afghans.

“They always admit their mistakes,” he said. “They burn our Koran and then they apologize. You can’t just disrespect our holy book and kill our innocent children and make a small apology.”

And:

Members of Parliament called on Afghans to take up arms against the American military, and Western officials said they feared that conservative mullahs might incite more violence at the weekly Friday Prayer, when a large number of people worship at mosques.

Americans are invaders, and jihad against Americans is an obligation,” said Abdul Sattar Khawasi, a member of Parliament from the Ghorband district in Parwan Province, where at least four demonstrators were killed in confrontations with the police on Wednesday.

The U.S. has violently occupied their country for more than a decade. It has, as Gen. Stanley McChrystal himself explained, killed what he called an “amazing number” of innocent Afghans in checkpoint shootings. It hasrepeatedly — as in, over and over — killed young Afghan children in air strikes. It continues to imprison their citizens for years at Bagram and other American bases without charges of any kind and with credible reports of torture and other serious abuses. Soldiers deliberately shot Afghan civilians for fun and urinated on their corpses and displayed them as trophies.

Meanwhile, the protesters themselves continue to be shot, although mostAmerican media accounts favor sentences like these which whitewash who is doing the killing: “running clashes with the police that claimed the lives of another five Afghan protesters” and “in Nangarhar Province, two Afghans protesting the Koran burning were shot to deathoutside an American base in Khogyani District” and “protesters angry over the burning of Korans at the largest American base in Afghanistan this week took to the streets in demonstrations in a half-dozen provinces on Wednesday that left at least seven dead and many more injured.”Left at least seven dead: as As’ad AbuKhalil observed, “notice that there is no killer in the phrasing.”

It’s comforting to believe that these violent protests and the obviously intense anti-American rage driving them is primarily about anger over the inadvertent burning of some religious books: that way, we can dismiss the rage as primitive and irrational and see the American targets as victims. But the Afghans themselves are making clear that this latest episode is but the trigger for — the latest symbol of — a pile of long-standing, underlying grievances about a decade-old, extremely violent foreign military presence in their country. It’s much more difficult to dismiss those grievances as the by-product of primitive religious fanaticism, so — as usual — they just get ignored.

 

UPDATE: Beyond all these points, it’s perversely fascinating to watch all of this condescension — it’s just a book: who cares if it’s burned?  – pouring forth from a country whose political leaders were eager to enacta federal law or even a Constutional amendment to make it a criminal offense to burn the American flag (which, using this parlance, is “just a piece of cloth”). In fact, before the Supreme Court struck down such statutes as unconstitutional in 1989 by a 5-4 vote, it was a crime in 48 states in the nation to burn the flag. Here is what Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote in dissent about why the Constitution permits the criminalization of flag burning (emphasis added):

The American flag, then, throughout more than 200 years of our history, has come to be the visible symbol embodying our Nation. It does not represent the views of any particular political party, and it does not represent any particular political philosophy. The flag is not simply another “idea” or “point of view” competing for recognition in the marketplace of ideas. Millions and millions of Americans regard it with an almost mystical reverence, regardless of what sort of social, political, or philosophical beliefs they may have.

Might one say the same for Muslims and the Koran? Along those lines, just imagine what would happen if a Muslim army invaded the U.S., violently occupied the country for more than a decade, in the process continuously killing American children and innocent adults, and then, outside of a prison camp it maintained where thousands of Americans were detained for years without charges and tortured, that Muslim army burned American flags — or a stack of bibles — in a garbage dump. Might we see some extremely angry protests breaking out from Americans against them? Would American pundits be denouncing those protesters as blinkered, primitive fanatics?

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76 Comments »

  1. Peace is its own reward. ~Mohandas Gandhi
    Too bad our country prefers to reap the bounty of war rather than sow peace!

  2. This is wrong sorry but the media outlets explained that it was a mistake, that the only reason the Quran’s were burned was because of hidden messages that were being passed in the texts.

  3. No one gets that upset when the Bible is burned!

  4. “Along those lines, just imagine what would happen if a Muslim army invaded the U.S., violently occupied the country for more than a decade, in the process continuously killing American children and innocent adults, and then, outside of a prison camp it maintained where thousands of Americans were detained for years without charges and tortured, that Muslim army burned American flags — or a stack of bibles — in a garbage dump.”

  5. The Afghans are not a very peaceful people.They seem to look for reasons to be violent and This was a perfect excuse.The part that no one is saying anything about is that the prisoners were writing code messages in the Korans which desecrates them equally and if the people had known about this they would have burned them but of course that information was not told them.

  6. The Afghans WERE a peaceful people. They were incredibly modern, well educated, and cosmopolitan until the US, French, and Russians started dicking around there.

  7. I think you need to calm down. I understand the afghan’s anger. Hell I think burning of any book is wrong. But there was few options and all would of had the same results. If they had been shredded, they would of gotten angry. They couldn’t be stored away, it takes up vital storage space. And they couldn’t be donated to a mosque because they had been de-faced by the prisoners. Whatever the choice, it would of been the same result.

  8. First, America has no business in the Middle East. They shouldn’t be in Afghanistan at all. They need to be brought home and let those people sort out their own problems. When America has problems other countries don’t come rushing in to help.

    Second, as for the Qu’ran, it is just a book. It would be different if the books they burnt were the ONLY ones available and none other were available to print. My understanding is that secret messages were written in those Qu’rans. If those messages were dealing with ways to turn people, then I could see why the books were burnt.

    I remember when art students from the College of Art in Chicago took to the streets. They threw the American flag on the ground, walked on it, pissed on it then burnt it. No one shouted, “Death the Chicagoians.” Then there was the museum on Philadelphia where someone(s) made a portrait of Jesus and his mother Mary that was completely disrespectful. There was no rebellion. That are also states for which the Bible is banned, and I have heard of some places where the Bible has been burnt. In all these incidents, there were no riots and no killings.

  9. @Shannon they weren’t modenized and they were in the middle of a civil war when we invaided.

  10. I understand the Qu’ran is their holy book, and I can appreciate that. But it is simply that, a book. One doesn’t need a book to be religious and to the right thing. Would their G-d, Allah approve of them killing people over a book? Think of it . . . Would Christ approve of Christians killing once another over the Bible?

    One doesn’t need a book to remind them that the God of the Universe taught/teaches LOVE. LOVE your neighbor as yourself.

  11. the quran is more than a book its the world of allah s.w.t we muslims both the good ones and bad ones hold it sacred as it is the most sacred book in islam,its a shame that christains in this country (u.s.a.)do not take the bible more seriously how many of you christains are willing to die for what you believe in?

  12. I hear the proper, respectful way to dispose of a Qur’an is the same as a flag: by fire. As long as the intention isn’t to be disrespectful, I don’t think there’s an issue. And Allah knows best.

  13. In over 2,500 years that Historians have documented the events of this Earth, only 250 years have been without war. And what is the reason that sparks these wars . . . RELIGION. Sad. Religion does more to destroy thing Earth than anything.

  14. Well this is a no brainer if you know muslims very well at all. They don’t consider the Koran just any book. They take it much more seriously than we do our Bible. For them burning the Koran is much much more sacreligious than it is for us. Not that we would appreciate the Bible being burned but that would require much explanation than we can get into here. It also has a lot to do with the culture and mentality. They tend to be very serious people especially where it concerns the Koran.

  15. I don’t think you would be a very happy people if your country has been raped and pillaged since the early 19th century and there is no end in site. The Unites States helped put the Taliban in power and now has occupied their country for more than 10 years. I think anyone would get tired and angry having to be pawned off and controlled with nothing but violence.

  16. Says he, torching a copy of the King James Version….

  17. We are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. I personally think it’s up to a people to decide whether they want freedom and should fight their own battles. (As in Iraq.) I’m referring to Afghan women, primarily. I wish we would get out of Afghanistan, and the sooner the better, but, honestly, the reaction among the Muslim community about the Koran burnings fuels the flame of fear and hatred of Muslims in the United States. We sit in front of our tvs aghast at the violence that erupts at soccer games, and the tens of thousands of men chanting during the reign of the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran in the seventies. (Always men) A certain segment of our population see Muslims as savages, and this is why.

  18. The Quran is like the book to the after life. Imagine if someone took the machine that kept you’re mother healthy and alive and threw it out the window, i imagine you would be pretty upset. To these people, who have most of there lives have had two things, the clothes on there back and this book which keeps them going. It’s pretty devestating to see it burnt.

  19. I think we should stop attacking America. I mean, we are here to stop bigotry against Islam, not to discriminate against america’s foriegn policy, be it right or wrong.

  20. It is a shame that people who claim to worship no idols worship a book.

  21. Edward, you are comparing apples and oranges with your comment about a machine verses a book. A machine enables people to live. A book does not do the same thing. If I were on a machine that enables me to breath and the machine were to be taken away, I would surly die. If I were to burn a book, I wouldn’t die.

    I know the Qu’ran is a holy book, very, very, sacred. But one doesn’t need the book to survive. If people understand the teaching in the Qu’ran, THAT is what keeps them alive. And if people know what the Qu’ran teaches, then even when the book is burnt, the teachings are still in their heads. They can still continue on with their lives doing good for all people, that’s just common sense.

  22. It does have relevance if people are wondering why afghans are acting the way they are. It may outwardly look like a religious issue but religion in the middle east is a huge part of cultural and political aspects in the country. In other wards this is as political as it is religious.

  23. Ahmed Mohamed This is for the above moron ROGER NEHRING. You worship a peace paper called a playboy yourself. I find it funny you would be that stupid , but than not really. There is a difference between book and Idol which is object. Book while being an object can be read retard. Here is an idea moron Roger Nehring above, why not get the F out of there nation? I would love to come into your house and smash your place up and than claim you were worshipping Idols . RETARD RETARD

  24. All of you are forgetting that the U.S is a foreign invader in THEIR country. The Quran burning incident is only a tipping point of all the other junk we have been doing wrong.

  25. @Teresa if that is how you think, then you truly do not understand the feelings of the Afghans.

  26. @Patrick, thanks for saying that, I have been sayin the same thing, but people dont seem to get it!

  27. Stop attacking America, this is not the point here. This is not a debate for or against the American invasion.

  28. That’s completely ignoring the root problem if you just ignore the American invasion.

  29. For all you morons and misguided “people” that keep stating incorrect fact and opinions, please shut up. The Qur’an is not just a book for you dummies that keep calling it a book. It is a guiding light to 1.6 billion muslims. It(the Qur’an), is the word of Allah subhanahu wa ta ala revealed to the greatest prophet of all, Muhammad sal allahu alayhi wa salam. Al kitab Allah has withstood 1433 yrs of time in its original language and has never been altered and can not be altered. We muslims live our lives by the book of Allah and the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad sal allahu alayhi wa salam every single day, 24/7, 365. So for all you Islamicly uneducated morons that feel the need to disrespect Islam and Al Kitab Allah, read first and live your life by it cuz your the ones that need at much as us muslims do, or shut your mouths and keep your racist, idiotic opinions to yourselves.

  30. As-Salaamu Alakium Hasim very well said . Allah swt knows best.

  31. Wa alaikum salam wa rahamtullahi wa barakatu.Allahu alim.

  32. *rahmatullahi

  33. Hmmm…I wonder if the roles were reversed and Holy Bibles were tossed on a garbage heap by a bunch of occupiers in the US….I expect Santorum and his ilk would be livid and march in the streets.Protesting that outsiders didn’t know or understand how holy the Bible truly was. Well, it’s the same situation in Afghanistan: the Koran is a holy book to its believers.

  34. This has everything to do with the invasion because you have to put this situation into context

  35. Look at Afghanistan before it was invaded by the Soviets and the Taliban took over.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWaxHhRF0Ts

  36. @Mussadiq I have a dream where Afghanistan can be like that again one day. But a lot of people want to bring our troops home for what? To sacrifice 10 years of hard work to allow the Afghan people there freedom rather then under the force of the Taliban. It’s not our countrty, but are they not people, are they not humans? For god sakes, how can you condemn these people to chaos just because they live across the world. We can not leave these people in there greatest time of need.

  37. Teresa, in what state is the Bible banned?

  38. Anne, if it was so holy, why did they deface it by writing in it?

  39. Patrick and killing 3200 Americans.on 911 was wrong. And the violence and death coming from this book burning is wrong. America has nothing to apologize for.

  40. @Chris Smith Let’s remember “a eye for a eye makes the whole world” This is not about revenge, it’s about making things safe. Killing 3200 Americans is wrong, that’s why we went to war. And to be better, saying sorry about burning a book and not meaning to offend anybody, is not a sign of weakness, but a sign we are better then the Taliban.

  41. Aeda, when pastor Terry Jones threatened to burn a koran in Florida in 2010, Muslims worldwide threatened to kill our servicemen anywhere they found them. Pastor Jones didnt invade anyone’s country. Muslims need very little provocation to act like savages.

  42. Please cite where Americans and especially American leaders are calling the Koran ‘just a book’. Please post those on here and we can condem those people together. I have not heard or read anyone saying such a thing. If it is so bad over there, the actions of the American and NATIO soldiers, then why is the Afghan government not made it publically clear that those troops should all leave ASAP.

  43. Muslims are not as violent as you take them. EXTREMISTS are the dangerous ones. There are not only Muslim terrorists in the world, there are christian terrorist groups as well, Lord’s Resistance Army in Africa is a big example. It is not the basic religion that causes danger, is it the extremists.

  44. I’m muslim and I don’t act savage. The Muslims you are talking about are the extremists. Pastor Jones is an idiot and I don’t condone his provoking just as I don’t condone the killings that happened. Don’t lump all Muslims into one category and I seriously would do a little more research besides just watching fox news. From other comments I’ve seen you make you seem pretty misinformed.

  45. And Vincent the Afghan people have been wanting the US and nato out for a long time. You really must not keep up with news reports because they’ve been rallying about it for a while now. Of course the mainstream media isn’t going to focus on it just like they don’t focus on the black genocide that’s occurring in Libya now that it’s been “liberated”.

  46. @Aeda I support your views on muslims, they are not our enemy. But like I once said, we can not abandon the Afghan people. I understand there are a lot of people who want us out. But they don’t understand the consequences of a pull out before the Afghan government is ready. The soviets pulled out of Afghan before the government it set up was ready, and we will not make the same mistake. Also, I supported the intervention in Libya. I understand there was some blacks that were rounded up because they were accused of being mercenaries, but let’s make it clear it was not the NTC that did this, it was individual militia. I spoke to several Libyans and they said things were looking a lot better then it was under Gaddafi. Yes they said they feared the Militia violence that is currently going on but they stated every day things were getting better and those Militia are slowly calming down.

  47. http://thenewamerican.com/world-mainmenu-26/africa-mainmenu-27/9005-libyan-rebels-accused-of-ethnic-cleansing-black-genocide anyone who is “okay” with bombing children and innocents or helps support it is not a lover of freedom. I’m done debating this here. I just hope Americans never feel the occupation that these countries have.

  48. 77% of civilian deaths are caused by Insurgents. So saying its “Americas” fault is completely inaccurate.

  49. its not just the quran but the invasion an doccupancy of yet another group that is ben ton killing women children and elderly people then saying “oops” and doing it again and again with false appologies after each time civilians are killed!! for these people to then say “they are protesting over the burning of a book” is like smacking someone upside the head so many times it drives them to the brink and then burning their car or other valuable item and then when they strike back you say “oh it was just a car/collection of memorabilia/book etc… ot try and make them look like the bad ones!!

  50. The burning of the Koran, which is not an isolated instance of denigrating that book, is only the flash-point. To paraphrase an old campaign slogan, “It’s the occupation, stupid.”

  51. Rumors are the Soldiers will be facing a trial in Afghanistan-is that true?

  52. We need to take our money and troops home then there will be no need for apologies. We then need to harden ourselves against reacting to human rights abuses over the entire globe. People do not appreciate or need our help. When they get tired enough of it they will change it themselves. Look at Syria, we do not need to spend a single U.S. Citizen’s life trying to help this country. Whatever we do for whatever reason we do it will be for naught. We will save no lives because we will have to kill many people to meet whatever goals we set up. Look at Iraq, Sadam may have killed many people to hold power, but how many people did we kill to break his power. These are no win situations and the minute a bomb kills a mother, father, son, daughter, or grandparent all gratitude ceases to exist.

    War is a cruel endeavor. The longer it goes on the more cruel it becomes and the more lives it disrupts. These limited wars of “Non-Attrition” are horrible in that they go on for years affecting generation after generation traumatizing each in turn. If the United States is not willing to fight a “War of Attrition” then it should not fight at all.

  53. I dont know if the soldiers will be tried in Afghanistan or not, but if you commite a crime on someone elses land, dont you think they should be tried where ever they are? I mean if someone commits a crime here, we dont try them in another country.

  54. its not just a book, its a divine revelation. please dont play with it…

  55. Mona, they cannot be tried because there was no crime. NATO has said they wont allow them to be tried in any case.

  56. Edward, thank you. Someone with sense.

  57. Michael, muslims go on rampages over much less even when there is no ” occupation’

  58. Essay in the WSJ by Max Boot says most Afghans do not want the Taliban back and only a small number are protesting the Koran thing.

    When we leave it will revert to the muslim usual: large group of cowed people, violent religious bandit/madmen, a few brave souls who pipe up and are destroyed.

    That’s after a grand massace of anyone they think cooperated with the US and a mutilated stack of uppity women.

  59. Rachel
    Theres usually always sonething. Somethings I dont agree with, like trying the non Muslim teacher who named the class teddy bear Mohammad. He wasnt God, if he were, we wouldnt name our kids after him. It was ridiculous, but even if it is stupid, they still protest things.

  60. Annon, I am sure your correct. Some very religous men will find a need to slaughter a great number of people in the name of God and state that God wills it. It is sad but not much can be done about it.

  61. criley,

    “not much can be done about it”?????????? simply eliminate god!!!!!! holy shit, is that blasphemous? i hope no muslims come back to this article.

    you a fan of depeche mode?

    http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/depeche+mode/blasphemous+rumours_20039337.html

  62. Do you think that seal team is up to the Job Mike?

  63. Sorry Mike, Depeche Mode is not a band I listen to. To be honest I was not sure who they were.

  64. Lam Lam what you say is true, but sadley enough when a “muslim” acts radical, we as muslims are blamed, whe christian commit crimes the religion is never mentioned, but when a muslim does it, its repeyed that they are “muslim” about a million times, hates breeds hate.

  65. God has nothing to do with it, power greed is the root. Eliminate God? The Soviet Union did such. Didn’t work out so well. I get the protests, (freedom of speech, good stuff) but the killing of soldiers over the burning of a holy book? The Army burns Bibles all the time, and nothing is done about it. Grow up, my Afghan friends. Protest about ridiculous things, and you will be as the little boy who cried wolf, ignored when stuff really goes bad.

  66. It is one thing to say that Afghani Muslims behave this way because of Western interference in their country and that they are merely reacting to a policy of American imperialism (and that burning the Koran is just the latest infraction in a whole host of atrocities). But remember, the whole reason why there is war in their country is because of radicals and fundamentalists who trained as terrorists with the Taliban, intent on attacking the Great Satan. Afghanistan, up until the NATO troops invaded in 2001, was under the governance of one of the most brutal Islamist regimes the world has ever seen. Now there is a chance for a free, democratic country to emerge from the wreckage of war.

    War is hell, and the war in Afghanistan is a horrible and prolonged affair. But I, for one, prefer an Afghanistan with NATO troops in it, hunting down and eradicating those who are prepared to use violence in defending their beliefs, and violence in forcing their beliefs on others, than an Afghanistan with the Taliban in charge. The Taliban were, and are butchers. They are the people who want to execute women who have been raped to preserve the family’s honor. They are the people who want to subjugate all women and girls, preventing female education from age 10 onwards, so that women are always dependent on their menfolk to provide – so that women cannot be functionally independent. They are the people who held public stonings as half-time entertainment at football matches. They are, in fact the worst enemy of Islam because it is their actions that Westerners think of when they think of the Islamic religion, actions that unfairly bias otherwise rational people against ALL Muslims (the actions of the bad apples shape perceptions of the whole group). The future of Afghanistan, if left to these monsters, would be bleak indeed for generations, until some brave people found the will to fight against them and eradicate them from within.

    Frankly, the type of culture that the Taliban want to enforce is objectively wrong and would serve to prevent the flourishing of their people. The NATO troops and Afghanistan National Army aren’t fighting “freedom fighters” who are trying to protect their country from Western imperialism. They are fighting fundamentalist jihadis who want to ensure that their insane interpretation of Islamic scripture is enforced on all citizens of their country. I would argue that NATO troops should be committed to this conflict until this idealogical plague is all but eliminated. Yes, there will be civilian casualties. But don’t blame the people who are fighting for a free, democratic Afghanistan, blame those who would, left unchecked, return Afghanistan to the Stone Age. NATO troops should remain until the Taliban are weak enough to be hunted down and exterminated one-by-one by their own countrymen in the Afghanistan National Army. That goal is still some years in the future, but if it is not achieved, we risk leaving the good people of Afghanistan to the depredations of the sick, twisted Islamists. And then the whole war would be for nothing. We owe it to these innocents to leave their country in a state where they are all free to do as they wish, believe as they wish and speak as they wish without fear of violent repercussions.

  67. Mona, nonsense. Christianity is routinely denounced and defamed in the media in this country.

  68. Chris, but which gets more hate? Islam…

  69. People who are deranged and stupid and misguided are the problem. Think about it, if i told you straight up that God said wanted all non Muslims dead, you wouldn’t believe me, unless you were already amgry at the world for what it did to your country, already lost a number of relatives/friends to that war/issue, and have other people pressuring you to do what they do. God didn’t say or tell anyone that. But taking a Verse out of context is the issue. Ths was the whole point I guess. Those who fell astray would suffer God’s wrath. Especially suicide bombers. Wtf is wrong with them.

  70. brian,

    eliminating god, and therefore religion would definately eliminate religously motivated wars. there would probably still be wars for land and resources and just straight up power. but how is a suicide bomber motivated by power or greed? it’s their belief that they will be rewarded in heaven that leads to their action.

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    A man came to Allah’s Apostle and said, “Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward).” He replied, “I do not find such a deed.” Then he added, “Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?” The man said, “But who can do that?” Abu- Huraira added, “The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders bout (for grazing) tied in a long rope.”

    http://www.faithinallah.org/sahih-bukhari-book-52-jihad/

  71. criley,

    no the seals can’t kill mythical beings. not even that dog with the titanium teeth. turns out that’s a myth too. to bad that was a great visual of a dog charging ubl with shiny sharp teeth. he would have surely that it was jinn coming at him. but i don’t even think the dog entered the building.

    elle,

    what relitives of bin laden, al-zawahri, the blind sheik, the christmas tree, times square, and now my boy sami osmakac????? did we kill? why do muslims kill each other so regularly?

  72. I said OR, they dont have to have lost people to the war, my uncle lost his best friend to the Israelis, saw him shot and dead right infront of him, but it didnt drive him crazy, BUT im talking about these Afghans. Many have lost mothers,fathers, brothers, children, why do you think they come here? Anyway, its a number of things, really. It’s disgusting. It takes in the Quran we need to find peace, inner and outer peace. Sure, some of it stems from misinterpretation of the verses, but going back to the time of Uthman Bin Affan (the 3rd Caliph) he was killed by his own army (soldiers barged into his house, killed him and mutilated his wife when she tried to stop them, apparently they just wanted to hurt him but we know the outcome because of a forged document stating they would be executed for disobeying the government. Uthman never said to execute any of them. He was actually way too kind and overlooked everything. Anyway, my point is, Muslims have shed blood for all sorts of reasons, not just the religion itself. So do not blame religion for war.

    Muhammad(s) said that once the sword was brought out amongst his people, Judgement day would surely follow. That’s why Uthman was too nice. He didnt want to start the bloodshed, but it was his kindness that brought his demise. Poor guy. Btw Mike you know a mujahid fights to defend. I asked about that hadith with Muhammad going into battle with the people grazing their herd. It was the time of war. Those very people he fought had killed and fought with his people.

  73. see elle,

    part of the problem. muslims have been killing each other since the begining, and still argueeing about it.

    http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?p=17996

    sorry i missed your caveat OR. but as you can tell my reading comprehention is not that strong.

  74. you always bring up interesting reading though.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_ibn_Affan

    war of apostaty sounds religious to me?

    did you see my response to your hand thing or did it scroll before you got to it?

  75. No, on the other article I responded, the Afghan Imams one.

    And Omar had his own wars between his people. Some didnt want to pay Zakat even though its in the Quran, the welfare of the poor depended on it, and the apostacy wars are actually about False Prophets. Like Musailyma and his wife Saja who had 16000 followers. Lol before he got big while Muhammad was alive he would steal the Quranic verses and claim them as his own. Then he had the nerve to ask Muhammad to team up with him as another Prophet. Muhammad was such a G and responded in the funniest way. I dont remember what he said exactly. His letter started out like this

    “Dear Musailyma al Kadhab (the Liar) Peace be upon those who believe in God and His last Prophet.”
    Sobasically, no peace for you because you are a liar. I love this man.

    Then theres the Muhammad Baha’Allah guy who started his own religion (you know the Bahais? Based on Islam) and you know it’s not just about religion is the fact that these people are lying, caniving and planning against the government
    And since the false prophets arent considered Muslim, it’s not a religious war between Muslims. .

    * Comprehension. And can you go find Anon and tell him that Pealestine was not given to the Palestinians in 1948 and taken away slowly because we were bad? He literally said that. Why the FU*k would we call it the Catastrophe then?!

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