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WARNING, NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ARTICLE.

dongo,

“Sharia apllies to Muslims and in their interaction with others.” so you now aggree with me? these soldiers shouldn’t be puninished. it is no “crime” for them/non-muslims to “desecrate” the koran.

“No, holy books should no way be considered as trash.” so now are you saying non-muslims should be punished for throwing away a koran? i have a koran right here. the binding is torn. i’ve duct taped it. you got duct tape in bangladesh? is that disrespectful? i don’t do any special washing before picking it up. i imagine when i want to throw it away i’ll throw it in the dumpster in the alley. that trash usually goes to the incinerator. but if you are going to kill me, i’ll throw it in tampa bay when it totally falls apart. or would it be better to take it 20 miles out in the gulf of mexico?

mb,

sorry if my comment made no-sense to you. let me see if i can be more clear in my thought proccess. if it is a great crime in sharia to burn a koran, but sharia only applies to muslims, then why be upset and punish non-muslims for burning a koran?

“Yes Sharia law is applicable only for Muslims.” so why punish these soldiers if sharia doesn’t apply to them? why worry about a danish/non-muslim cartoonist. why put a bounty on rushdie. why riots after terry jones burnt – shot, whatever he did?

how did we get back to the battle of trench and it’s aftermath?

but thanks for your “I guess u don’t understand as usual.” it does make me laugh so.

good to here from ya’ll. i’ll repost higher in the rotation

//mike
27 June 2012 at 10:37 am

If I’m tracking your conversation correctly you (mike) are asking if the soldiers who burned the Qur’ans should be punished. If this is your question, the answer is yes. Under the military guidelines that US soldiers operate they are accountable for such actions. They are briefed prior to going into an area of conflict what the cultural norms are, what is offensive, and what not to do. They are taught specifically about not handling the Qur’an in front of the local population, and if they need to be disposed of to let an official who has been identified ahead of time dispose of them. Now, the question becomes to what extent should they be punished. Is it a criminal act, or a dereliction of duty? It is the latter, and they will receive non-judicial punishment. But the real damage isn’t about the Qur’ans. Yes, old Qur’ans are either burned or put in water to dissolve. Either of these means are done by a Muslim out of reverence. The difference being that these soldiers did it out of malice or to degrade. The real damage is to the US’s ties to it’s Muslim “allies.” These soldiers that are doing these acts in the name of patriotism (or something) are actually hurting US interests more then they will ever know. For example, how is it that the US could not renegotiate a SOFA agreement with Iraq? Why have it’s supply lines through Pakistan been shut down(though this is more a result of the drone campaign)? If the US wants to continue to be the world Superpower it needs to start respecting the peoples it deals with, and their cultures/religions, and stop taking a paternalistic view of it’s allies. It is not so much the US heads of state that take this attitude, it is more so the combatant commanders. And they set the tone on the ground.

//Rashiyd Abu Ali
27 June 2012 at 11:31 am

Rashiyd Abu Ali,

“Under the military guidelines that US soldiers operate they are accountable for such actions.” i thought they claimed it was a mistake. that they took the korans from prisoners whom they believed where using them to communicate coded messages amoungst them selves.
“But the real damage isn’t about the Qur’ans. Yes, old Qur’ans are either burned or put in water to dissolve.” thought the afghans mostly bury their korans, but that’s neither here nor there.
“The real damage is to the US’s ties to it’s Muslim “allies.”” no doubt there. so i don’t get why they even bring it back up again.
“For example, how is it that the US could not renegotiate a SOFA agreement with Iraq?” don’t know? maybe the shia/iranian influence? but the iraqis haven’t shown themselves to be the most educated people in the world. why did they allow a dictator to dominate them for so many years? why did they start blowing each other up in the power vacuum, as opposed to working together to build a better nation?
“Why have it’s supply lines” did you mean to say OUR supply lines there?
“If the US wants to continue to be the world Superpower it needs to start respecting the peoples it deals with, and their cultures/religions, and stop taking a paternalistic view of it’s allies.” so don’t treat them like women?
“It is not so much the US heads of state that take this attitude, it is more so the combatant commanders. And they set the tone on the ground.” well where the rubber meets the road you don’t always have the sharpest knives in the draw.

but excellent lawyering. i’m sure you know the uniform military code of justice much better than me.

so if i, as a civilian where in afghanistan and i burnt the koran, should i be punished? so who is a muslim? if your father is a muslim, and you observe the five tenets of islam until you’re 25. then you deside you don’t believe anymore and you burn your koran. what should happen?

again, so why worry about a danish/non-muslim cartoonist. why put a bounty on rushdie. why riots after terry jones burnt – shot, whatever he did? to the koran?

always good to talk to you.

//mike
27 June 2012 at 12:13 pm

Even if it was a mistake, though I don’t see how (maybe), they are still responsible for their actions. Non-judicial means they may have to serve extra duty, or forfeiture of pay, maybe loss of rank.

My concerns weren’t why Iraqis didn’t overthrow Sadam or why sectarian violence almost led to civil war (which may still be coming). My concerns were/are about my fellow soldiers actions. We are expected to behave morally and ethically in combat, so it ticks me off a little when some of them act undisciplined.
Yes, I mean OUR supply lines.
No, don’t treat them like children. Like you know what’s better for them then they do, and you can somehow save them from themselves.

As a civilian in Afghanistan I am assuming you are a US contractor and therefore fall under the SOFA. You could not be tried under Afghan law, but you would probably be censored by the company you work for, and possible sent home.

Where is this 26 year old former Muslim at when he burns the Qur’an? And who is involved? If here in America he has the freedom of expression to burn the Qur’an. If he is in Afghanistan as a US contractor, then same as above. If he is in Afghanistan and is not protected by the SOFA then he would be subject to local law unless the US could intervene. The fact that he was born and raised Muslim doesn’t factor into any of this scenario.
As far as cartoonist, bounties, and riots, I don’t know. You would have to ask the people with that mindset. I can think of more constructive ways to challenge stupidity. Like write a book, educate, or respond to forum questions and comments. No offense.

//Rashiyd Abu Ali
27 June 2012 at 12:45 pm

I think here you are running into US freedom of speech. Here you can say or write almost anything. What you cannot do is make threats, physically attack someone or interrupt a scheduled meeting.

Topics are not taboo. Amazon draws the line at porn, but if you want to say Mohammad/Jesus/Buddha was a monster, have at it.

//anon
27 June 2012 at 1:19 pm

“Even if it was a mistake, though I don’t see how (maybe), they are still responsible for their actions.” maybe the got put in the wrong pile? maybe the guys where told not to burn this pile of trash while the “local population” was around. shifts changed and the word wasn’t passed on? a clerical error? the possibilities are nearly endless. this guy didn’t go into any detail. http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/ap-dempsey-says-koran-burning-done-by-mistake-022212/
“Non-judicial means they may have to serve extra duty, or forfeiture of pay, maybe loss of rank.” yeah that was in the article.

“My concerns weren’t why Iraqis didn’t overthrow Sadam or why sectarian violence almost led to civil war (which may still be coming).” yeah i know. i was saying don’t expect me to figure out what isin the mind of iraqis, or the reasoning for their actions.
“My concerns were/are about my fellow soldiers actions. We are expected to behave morally and ethically in combat, so it ticks me off a little when some of them act undisciplined.” i agreed.
“No, don’t treat them like children. Like you know what’s better for them then they do, and you can somehow save them from themselves.” sorry if you didn’t get my sarcasm. see if men have the responsibility to take care of women, then in my simple mind women are treated like children in sharia.

it’s a hypothetical dude. never been to afghanistan. but i hear the bread is awesome. so anyways, regardless of a person being muslims or not. in a muslim country or not. there is no way there should be any law limiting freedom of speech in such a way.
“As far as cartoonist, bounties, and riots, I don’t know. You would have to ask the people with that mindset.” so you have no problem with the danish cartoons. but if they were drawn in saudi arabia you would be infavor of some punishment?
“I can think of more constructive ways to challenge stupidity. Like write a book, educate, or respond to forum questions and comments. No offense.” non-taken. wait i get it, your calling me stupid. lol. that’s ok i been called worse here.

//mike
27 June 2012 at 3:29 pm

why iraqis do what they do? i have no idea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18606545

//mike
27 June 2012 at 3:31 pm

I wonder if the Muslim Council of Britain would have any objection if a pro-jihadist book were sold. Of course not. They just target those that criticize the treatment of women in the Muslim world.

//Rocky Lore
27 June 2012 at 4:04 pm

“selling offensive, racist and potentially dangerous ebooks on subjects ranging from bomb-making to drug growing.” the anirchist cook book has been in american libraries for years. is hightimes not allowed in the uk?

“They added: “Freedom of expression should not be unlimited, and publications that cause anti-Muslim hatred, anti-Jewish hatred or homophobic hatred should not be allowed.”” the brits have some strange ideas about freedom of speech. so if a book can cause hatred, then could not news reports cause hatred.

how about a book that causes kuffar hatred?
8:12

إذ يوحي ربك إلى الملائكة أني معكم فثبتوا الذين آمنوا سألقي في قلوب الذين كفروا الرعب فاضربوا فوق الأعناق واضربوا منهم كل بنان

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”

8:13

ذلك بأنهم شاقوا الله ورسوله ومن يشاقق الله ورسوله فإن الله شديد العقاب

That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger – indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

wait there is supposed to be some historical context here? the battle of badr. so is every koran sold in the wolrd comes with the historical context?

how about this website. couldn’t these hadiths lead to hatred?

http://www.faithinallah.org/sahih-muslim-book-41-turmoil-and-portents-of-the-last-hour/

Book 041, Number 6984:

Abdullah b. ‘Umar reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.

don’t the saudis use this hadith in their textbooks?

//mike
27 June 2012 at 4:06 pm

As far as the mistake goes. I am using my experience from my last deployment in 09. We had to deal with Qur’an being used to transmit messages, but we collected them and had one of the Iraqi teacher near us dispose of them properly. 14 months, no issues.

Marriage in Islam is suppose to be about mutual love that God places in their hearts. Just because the man has the responsibility to provide for his wife (of female relative) doesn’t mean he owns her. Muslim women work, are students, athletes, etc. If the marriage (just like non-Muslim marriages) is base on mutual respect and honoring God then no, I disagree. It is not the same as treating them like children. And there are many non-Muslim men who think they control their wives. No one needs a religion for that, nor does any one religion have a monopoly on it.

I don’t have a problem with the Danish cartoonist. I have a problem with ignorance. And to me it is ignorant to publish stuff like that. If you don’t agree with me, then try to “enlighten” me. But if you attack and slander, I have to question your motives. Are you doing it because you really want me to know the “truth” as you see it, or is it just out of hate=ignorance (no. they’re not the same) For example. Our debates have been respectable. I genuinely would like for you or whoever else reads our conversations to see the beauty of Islam, or at least agree it is not want Fox news paints it to be. If you corner me on an issue I don’t have answers to or don’t agree with one of your points, what good would attacking you verbally (textually??) do?

No. I’m not calling you stupid. I’ve dealt with a lot of stupid ppl online, you are not one of them. Maybe just misinformed 😉

Yes. there is a historical context in which the Qur’an was reveal and in which the Prophet live (thus the Ahadeeth). Remember when you asked me about Deuteronomy? I can show you plenty of verses from the old and even a few from the new testament that if taken literally (not looking at the context) would make the verses you just listed look like nursery rhymes. But I’m sure you already are familiar with them.

@ rocky Why “of course not.”? Has that council advocated extremist books in the past? Do they now? Do you know? Or are you just blanketing everyone because it’s easier to do that? Just curious.

//Rashiyd Abu Ali
27 June 2012 at 6:26 pm

Fucky Whore,

Think what would happen if Amazon would be selling books praising US’s love children Sodom Hussein, Dustbin Laden, ShiTaliban, who now have become villains to you?

I am very deeply impressed by your hypocrisy, baselessness and hatred. I am pretty sure to be a hellbound hellhound for my misdeeds in this world. If God asks me what would be my last wish prior to kicking me into the eternal inferno, I would chose you as my bitch.

//dongo
27 June 2012 at 10:50 pm

“As far as the mistake goes. I am using my experience from my last deployment in 09. We had to deal with Qur’an being used to transmit messages, but we collected them and had one of the Iraqi teacher near us dispose of them properly. 14 months, no issues.” different time different place? so you don’t see the possibility of a commander telling the guys not to dispose ofthis pile of books,we have an iman coming in. he will handle it. then a shift change and the word not being passed on. the new guys just throw them in the incinerator? i don’tknow i wasn’t there. just seems silly to me for people to kill people because a book was disposed of.

“Marriage in Islam is suppose to be about mutual love that God places in their hearts. Just because the man has the responsibility to provide for his wife (of female relative) doesn’t mean he owns her. Muslim women work, are students, athletes, etc. If the marriage (just like non-Muslim marriages) is base on mutual respect and honoring God then no, I disagree.” sorry been too long to follow as what it is you disagree?
“It is not the same as treating them like children.” so you don’t see how saying men are in charge relegates women to less than equal status? you say you don’t think a society that thinks three = one would understand equality. but i think the word you is looking for is equity, not equallity.
“And there are many non-Muslim men who think they control their wives. No one needs a religion for that, nor does any one religion have a monopoly on it.” yeah i mentioned the promise keepers.

“I don’t have a problem with the Danish cartoonist.” cool.
“I have a problem with ignorance. And to me it is ignorant to publish stuff like that.” ok. what does that mean now? you do have a problem with the cartoons?
“If you don’t agree with me, then try to “enlighten” me.” it’s called freedom of speech.
“But if you attack and slander, I have to question your motives.” so no one can question islam? to do so is slander. to ask why there is so much terrorism in islamic lands is to slander islam?
“Are you doing it because you really want me to know the “truth” as you see it,” i don’t claim to know the “truth”. i think you mistake me for a muslim.
“or is it just out of hate=ignorance” i guess ignorance. i hate no one, but i am ignorant of much.
“(no. they’re not the same) For example. Our debates have been respectable. I genuinely would like for you or whoever else reads our conversations to see the beauty of Islam, or at least agree it is not want Fox news paints it to be.” lol. it’s good to see i’m not the only one who types “want” when meaning “what”.
“If you corner me on an issue I don’t have answers to or don’t agree with one of your points, what good would attacking you verbally (textually??) do?” sorry to hear you feel cornered. but like i said, i went to 12 years of catholic school. if nothing else we learned to pick doctrine apart.

“No. I’m not calling you stupid. I’ve dealt with a lot of stupid ppl online, you are not one of them. Maybe just misinformed” thanks. so please “enlighten, sorry inform” me. does islam have freedom of speech? does islam allow for women being head of household? does islam allow for slavery?

“Yes. there is a historical context in which the Qur’an was reveal and in which the Prophet live (thus the Ahadeeth). Remember when you asked me about Deuteronomy? I can show you plenty of verses from the old and even a few from the new testament that if taken literally (not looking at the context) would make the verses you just listed look like nursery rhymes. But I’m sure you already are familiar with them.” not sure cutting off someone’s head could be considered a nursery rhymes. although the grimm brothers are pretty brutal.

so what historical context is needed for a fight between two guys?

Deuteronomy 25:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

“11 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:

12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.”

from the prophets of the god of abraham?

//mike
27 June 2012 at 11:15 pm

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//buy ebooks
28 June 2012 at 8:00 am

“just seems silly to me for people to kill people because a book was disposed of”
There you go switching focal points again. We weren’t talking about ppl being killed as a result of the Qur’an being burnt (which I agree is senseless), we were talking about if the soldiers who burned them, intentionally of otherwise, should be punished. And no, I don’t see the mix up happening like that.

“so you don’t see how saying men are in charge relegates women to less than equal status?” Absolutely. Thing is, I never said “in charge.” Just because I am responsible for taking care of my wife’s needs does not make me “in charge” of her. Not it I am going to have a happy marriage. And if I choose to be “in charge” of her that has nothing to do with my religion. As I said I could be Christian and be “in charge” of my wife.

“it’s called freedom of speech. so no one can question islam? to do so is slander. to ask why there is so much terrorism in islamic lands is to slander islam?”

Never said that. I don’t have a problem with ppl asking tough questions. And I wouldn’t consider it slanderous to ask questions. But if I were to say the all atheist are just mindless creatures who do not have the sense that God gave to a dog. and that ppl should fear and hate them. expel them from their societies because they don’t do any good for anyone. and I picked, and I ridiculed, and I taunted. eventually that 16% of ppl are going to take offense. Then I get ppl to discriminate, and harass, to demean. And eventually ppl start to attack, maybe even kill. Is anything that I said productive/constructive? Does it allow me or anyone else to opportunity to get to know what atheist think, what there positions are, why they chose that belief (of lack thereof)? Therefore it does not promote mutual understand, or mutual respect. Only and attitude of contempt for someone who looks different, and believes different.

lol. it’s good to see i’m not the only one who types “want” when meaning “what”.

lol.

“sorry to hear you feel cornered.”

“it’s a hypothetical dude”, I don’t feel cornered.

“does islam have freedom of speech?”

The freedom of speech lays in the responsibility to speak the truth, and what is beneficial (like the old adage “If you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say it at all”)

“does islam allow for women being head of household?”
In that she is responsible for the children, and that what she says about the house goes. Then yes. In the sense that the woman “runs” the man. no. but neither does the man “run” the wife. THEY run their house.

“does islam allow for slavery?”

Yes. As does Judaism. As does Christianity. Remember it was not until 1881 that mankind deemed slavery illegal. They, not their religions, determined this. So religiously speaking all three faiths “allow” slavery. We choose not the practice it.

“not sure cutting off someone’s head could be considered a nursery rhymes”

“O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us (the Jews)!
Blessed shall he be who takes your babies and dashes them against the rock!”
Psalm 137:8,9

Um, I think this trumps.

“so what historical context is needed for a fight between two guys?”

I don’t know. Since you gave an example out of the Torah you’d have to ask a Rabbi

//Rashiyd Abu Ali
28 June 2012 at 9:16 am

1881? SA supposedly abolished slavery in 1965.

//anon
28 June 2012 at 9:51 am

Sorry about that. 1808 was the end of the slave trade (legally). and the 13th Amendment was enacted in 1865. wrong dates, same point. But thanks for the correction.

//Rashiyd Abu Ali
28 June 2012 at 10:28 am

“There you go switching focal points again.” yeah blame it on my ADD, sail! but that’s not really switching focal points. the point is, that no book, a combination of paper and ink should command more respect than human life. or freedom of speech. if you punish these soldiers are you not bowing to the ideas that lead to riots and 20 killed, because of this concept of holding a book as “sacred”. i would hold the american flag as more sacred to me than any of these ancient scriptures. should i be able to command that anyone you burns the flag should be punished? of course not. i defend people’s right to burn the flag.

“And no, I don’t see the mix up happening like that.” ok. fine, it was totally intentional. so what. IT’S A BOOK. i guess my last attempt at a scenario was convoluted. so do you support an american on american soil being allowed to burn the koran?

so if a wife wants to move the family to another city, and the husband says no, what happens. but if the husband wants to move the family to another city, can the wife forbid it.

“Yes. As does Judaism. As does Christianity.” good reason not to be a jew christian or muslim.
“Remember it was not until 1881 that mankind deemed slavery illegal. They, not their religions, determined this.” so mankind came up with better law than god?
“So religiously speaking all three faiths “allow” slavery.” again shows poor foresight in his 5000 years of prophecy.
“We choose not the practice it.” i think globalism has forced the abandonment of it on most cultures who what to be a part of the world economy. don’t know if you saw my other post before it scrolled . but saudi arabia had a slave market until 1962 and mauritinia had slavery up until the 80s. that’s 1980. “mankind deemed slavery illegal” 13th amendment. your stats seem a bit american-centric. don’t treat other cultures like they are children. if they want to enslave people who are we to say it is wrong. god didn’t.

“I don’t know. Since you gave an example out of the Torah you’d have to ask a Rabbi” don’t muslims believe the torah to be divinely reveled. aren’t the prophets of the old testement prophets to muslims? didn’t muhammad imploy the law of the torah when he stoned the jew and jewess.

“Um, I think this trumps.” lol. i agree the bible is no guidence for modern mankind. just like the koran. i agree with fareed zakaria, neither the bible or the koran are a good basis for a modern society.

i know there was no “how to talk to christians” day. but deflection “christian slavery, it was in the bible first, etc. etc.” is always funny to me. but at least you haven’t brought up the crusades.

maybe after i rest a bit, that was a lot of typing, i’ll have more questions. in the mean time you have a good one boss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Mauritania

“The number of slaves in the country was not known exactly, but is was estimated to be up to 600,000 men, women and children, or 20% of the population [3][4] of 3,069,000 people.”

//mike
29 June 2012 at 2:09 pm

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