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Mehdi Hasan: We Mustn’t Allow Muslims in Public Life to be Silenced

10 July 2012 General 36 Comments Email This Post Email This Post

by Mehdi Hasan (Guardian: Comment is Free)

Have you ever been called an Islamist? How about a jihadist or a terrorist? Extremist, maybe? Welcome to my world. It’s pretty depressing. Every morning, I take a deep breath and then go online to discover what new insult or smear has been thrown in my direction. Whether it’s tweets, blogposts or comment threads, the abuse is as relentless as it is vicious.

You might think I’d have become used to it by now. Well, I haven’t. When I started writing for a living, I never imagined I’d be the victim of such personal, such Islamophobic, attacks, on a near-daily basis. On joining the New Statesman in 2009, I was promptly subjected to an online smear campaign, involving a series of selectively edited videos of speeches I’d delivered in front of groups of Muslim university students several years ago. I was accused of being a “secret” member of the extremist group Hizb ut-Tahrir, and a “dangerous Muslim shithead” in the “same genre” as the Nazis. The post that sticks in my mind is from the blogger who referred to me as a “moderate cockroach” whose Islamic faith was “no different from the Islam of Abu Hamza, Abu Qatada, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Anjem Choudary or any of the ‘tiny minority’ of Islamic terrorists who believe that Islam must dominate, no matter what the cost”.

Three years later, as I leave the New Statesman to join the Huffington Post UK, little seems to have changed. “Huffington Post’s new UK political director brings pro-Iran baggage,” screamed the headline on the Fox News website back in late May. My “baggage”? I once publicly praised a fatwa from Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, forbidding the production of nuclear weapons. Shame on me! Another ultra-conservative US news website, the Washington Free Beacon, referred to me as the “HuffPo’s house jihadi”.

The mere mention of the words “Islam” or “Muslim” generates astonishing levels of hysteria and hate on the web. As one of only two Muslim columnists in the mainstream media – the other being the Independent’s Yasmin Alibhai-Brown – I have the dubious distinction of being on the receiving end of much of it. In August 2011, for instance, I wrote a light-hearted column in the Guardian on Ramadan, examining how Muslim athletes cope with fasting while competing. The article provoked an astonishing 957 comments, the vast majority of which were malicious, belligerent or both. As one perplexed commenter observed: “There is much we might criticise Islam for … but to see the amount of hatred being spewed on this thread on an article about something as innocuous as fasting really makes one wonder.” Indeed.

And it isn’t just pieces about Muslims. A recent interview of mine with the shadow chancellor, Ed Balls, elicited the following response: “Get out of my country, goatfucker.” How many other political columnists have to deal with such “feedback”? And how many of my fellow pundits in the British media get death threats in the post, warning them that “there will not be 1 live Muslim left in Europe when we have finished”?

From my perspective, the British commentariat can be divided into three groups. The first consists of a handful of journalists who regularly speak out against the rising tide of anti-Muslim bigotry – from the Telegraph’s Peter Oborne to a bevy of Guardian columnists, including Jonathan Freedland, Seumas Milne and Gary Younge.

The second consists of those writers, such as the Mail’s Melanie Phillips, the Telegraph’s Charles Moore and the Spectator’s Douglas Murray, who see Islam and Muslims as alien, hostile and threatening. Phillips has referred darkly to a “fifth column in our midst”; Murray has said “conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board”.

But it is the third, and perhaps biggest, group that concerns me most: those commentators who boast otherwise impeccable anti-racist credentials yet tend to be silent on the subject of Islamophobia; journalists who cannot bring themselves to recognise, let alone condemn, the growing prevalence of anti-Muslim feeling across Europe – or acknowledge the simple fact that the targeting of a powerless, brown-skinned minority is indeed a form of racism.

Original post: We Mustn’t Allow Muslims in Public Life to be Silenced

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36 Comments »

  1. I was called a hajji by a former classmate, and I’m not even Muslim!

  2. http://www.indianpanorama.com/karnataka/_scripts/_videos/video.php?vid_id=12422

    muslim keep calling me an animal. lol.

    “Abu Hamza, Abu Qatada, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Anjem Choudary or any of the ‘tiny minority’ of Islamic terrorists who believe that Islam must dominate, no matter what the cost”.” i like his use of the term islamic terrorist. but his comments on us kuffar sounds simialar to Abu Hamza. i can see why some british might find him a bit extreme.

    moo, moo……

  3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehdi_Hasan#cite_note-11

    “At a separate event in 2009,[11] quoting the Quran, Hasan told an audience atheists were akin to “cattle”.[12] He said: “The kaffar, the disbelievers, the atheists who remain deaf and stubborn to the teachings of Islam, the rational message of the Quran; they are described in the Quran as, quote, ‘a people of no intelligence’, Allah describes them as; not of no morality, not as people of no belief – people of ‘no intelligence’ – because they’re incapable of the intellectual effort it requires to shake off those blind prejudices, to shake off those easy assumptions about this world, about the existence of God. In this respect, the Quran describes the atheists as ‘cattle’, as cattle of those who grow the crops and do not stop and wonder about this world.””

    this guy is one of the great moderates of islam? quite the uniting force he must be in england. of course if this is in the koran, it must be right. it’s perfection. “rational message of the Quran”, lol.

    [7.178] Whomsoever Allah guides, he is the one who follows the right way; and whomsoever He causes to err, these are the losers.
    [7.179] And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.
    [7.180] And Allah’s are the best names, therefore call on Him thereby, and leave alone those who violate the sanctity of His names; they shall be recompensed for what they did.
    [7.181] And of those whom We have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice.
    [7.182] And (as to) those who reject Our communications, We draw them near (to destruction) by degrees from whence they know not.

    from the religion of tolerance, well only if you believe are you to be tolerated. keep throw stones, keep your “moral highground”.

  4. Welcome to your world, Mass media killed our reputation.

  5. Mike, I like the quote up there. “the people who remain deaf and stubborn to the teachings of Islam” is the attitude indeed. See, if they remain deaf and stubborn then they can be beat up or killed because they are cattle.

    The vituperation is unpleasant but better than being chased down the street by a mob and set on fire because you are of the wrong religion.

    Muslims have been murdering their own reputation for years. They are a tribe that thinks it is ok to kill or harass everyone not in their group. Absurd to wonder why the rest of us don’t like them.

    It is absurd to express disdain for everyone else and then whine that everyone else expresses disdain for you.

    Silly story recently about the UK photographer who goes up to a muslim couple in a store and starts giving them prissy wise words about true feminism and the rights we have in Britain. They don’t like what she is saying and hit her and trip her. They think they are entitled to do that.

  6. yeah it’s mass media that has killed islam’s reputation. not sure what reputation you think it had since the 70s. yes mass media allows for the world wide spread of knowledge. we understand what it is muslims believe is “justice”.

    so if these guys aren’t “islamic terrorists” what kind of terrorists are they? freedom fighters i guess.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18777992

  7. Mike, Anon,
    Its surprising that neither of you knows anything about self criticism. Double standards all the time. Did you know that the majority of weapons givin to these extremist ideologies were given by the US? It didn’t matter how bad the Mujahideen were, as long as they didn’t support Communism. When the socialist Baath Party came into power Saddam (in the same party) tried to assasinate their candidate. He failed and fled the country. But because the America, had the suspicion, again, that they would support Communism they sent in the CIA who took out General Qassim (the new leader). Saddam quickly returned, came into power, and what do you know? We suddenly decide that this terrorist could be an ally, so we gave him weapons of mass destruction. In Iran, the CIA also took out the democratic leader (suspected of Communism, big surprise?) and replaced him with the Shah, a cruel dictator, who used weapons supplied by the US to attack his own people. Its all good for America and Britain becuz they profited from the oil which they took as compensation for their support of the Shah.

    You are both hypocrites. Both of you are quick to point the blame on Muslims when terrorists start killing Muslims, as Hassan pointed out, you do LACK UNDERSTANDING, and you proved him right with your ignorant quotes. Whenever this newspaper talks about hate crimes against Muslims, you are both quick to say “What about what dem MOozlems are doing to the Christians?” Well same to you, what about what your country has done to Muslim countries for the last century? I don’t hear a peep out of you. You only concentrate on what the OTHER countries are doing but refuse to look at yourself. What about Drone attacks? Killing 10 civillians if it will get you one terrorist? If you did support it, which you probably do, you have no right and no decency to talk about what those terrorists do to Muslims, considering what you are doing in Pakistan and Afganistan is worse than anything the Taliban or Al-Qaeda is doing.

    Your quote,
    we understand what it is muslims believe is “justice”.
    No you don’t, and you proved so by quoting how terrorists stone women to death even though it goes against the Sharia. Now I’m sure, as ignorant as you are now, and slow witted, you want to say “Well yeah, last time I checked stoning was in the Quran” but alas again your ignorance shines through. You have to go to court, have 4 male witnesses testify to seeing the act, then test the witnessess to see if they are lying. All legal procedures. No punishment without evidence. The Taliban torture ppl, accuse them without proof, and stone people. But hey, again, I don’t hear you talk about what America does in Guantanamo. Same as the Taliban, only you get all righteous and think you are better than those Muslim countries. Another thing Ahmed should have pointed out about atheists was arrogance. Their is plenty of that in the story of the Pharoh and Moses.

  8. Story of the Pharaoh and why he was destroyed.
    So go, both of you, to Pharaoh and say, We both are messengers of the Lord of all the worlds, (sent with the message) that you must send the children of Isrā‘īl with us. He (Pharaoh) said, Did we not nourish you among us as a child? And you remained amidst us for years, and you did the blunder you did; still you are ungrateful. He said, I did that at a time when I was mistaken. Then I fled away from you when I feared you. Thereafter my Lord granted wisdom to me, and made me one of the messengers. As for the favor with which you are obliging me, it is that you have enslaved the children of Isrā‘īl. Pharaoh said, what is the Lord of the worlds? He (Mūsā) said, Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever there is between them, if you are to believe. He (The Pharaoh) said to those around him, are you not hearing? He (Mūsā) said, Your Lord and the Lord of your early forefathers. He (Pharaoh) said, your messenger who is sent to you is a mad man indeed. He (Mūsā) said, Lord of the East and the West and whatever lies between them, if you are to understand. He (Pharaoh) said, If you adopt a God other than me, I will certainly put you to prison. (Al-Shu’ara)16-29

    He (Mūsā) said Will you (do this) even if I bring to you something evident? He said, Then bring it, if you are truthful. So, he threw down his staff, and in no time it was a serpent, clearly visible, and he drew out his hand, and right then it was a white light to the onlookers. He (Pharaoh) said to the chiefs around him, this man is certainly an expert sorcerer. He wants to expel you from your land with his sorcery. So what do you suggest? They said, Leave him and his brother alone for some time, and send heralds to the cities, so that they bring to you every highly expert sorcerer. (Al-Shu’ara)

    The sorcerers could not but fall in prostration. They said, we believe in the Lord of the worlds, the Lord of Mūsā and Hārūn. Pharaoh said, you have believed in him before my permission. Undoubtedly, this is a plot you have designed in the city, so that you may expel its people from it. Now you shall know (its end). I will cut off your hands and your legs from opposite sides. Then I will crucify you all together. They said, we have surely to return to our Lord. For what fault would you punish us except that we have believed in the signs of our Lord when they appeared to us? O our Lord, pour out patience upon us, and cause us to die as Muslims (those who submit to you.) (Al-A’raf)121-126

    And We seized the people of Pharaoh with years of famine and poor production of fruits, so that they may learn a lesson. When good times came to them, they said, this is our right. And if an evil touched them, they took it as an ill omen of Mūsā and those with him. Listen, their ill omen lies with Allah only, but most of them do not know. They said, whatever sign you bring to us to enchant us with, we are not going to believe in you. So We sent upon them the storm and locusts and lice and frogs and blood, as signs distinct from each other. Yet they showed arrogance, and they were a guilty people. Whenever a scourge befell them, they said, O Mūsā, pray for us to your Lord by the covenant He has made with you. If you remove the scourge from us, we will truly believe in you, and will send the children of Isrā‘īl with you. But when We removed the scourge from them for a term they had to reach, in no time they started to break their promise. (Al-A’raf)130-134

    “And We let the children of Isrā‘īl cross the sea. So, Pharaoh and his troops chased them in transgression and hostility, until when he was about to drown, he said, I believe that there is no god but the One in whom the children of Isrā‘īl believe, and I am among those who submit to Allah. (Allah said,) is it now (that you have come to believe) while you were rebellious all along, and you were among the mischief-makers? So, today, We shall save your body, so that you may become a sign for those after you. And many of the people are heedless of Our signs.” (Yunus)91-92

    This story should be especially important to atheists, becuz the story is explained in detail the reason the Pharaoh rejected Moses and rejected God. His arrogance blinded him, and God does not guide the arrogant and the oppressive. They will never believe until they see the punishment (too late). Their are many signs from God in the Quran as well for proofs of God, but only the arrogant reject them. The stories are meant to show reflection, that people can even reject God when the see miracles b4 their very eyes. These ppl are all alike and can’t be helped. So I think the parable of the dog, cattle or whatever you like to take out of context is a good example for such ppl.

  9. Bennett, if you declare that everyone not in your group is inferior, worthy of death and unworthy of full citizenship, you are creating stagnation, oppression, and lots of death.

    It is too bad some muslims are in a state of annoyance/hatred with those who don’t convert, it is a pitiful way to live.

    Strong countries no doubt meddle with weak countries. Wikipedia says Saddam gradually acquired power while al Bakr was ailing. Saddam as you know was ruthless and genocidal. It’s good the muslim countries are throwing off their dictators – imagine one man being in charge for 30-40 yrs – I think they are in for a lot of turmoil.

    i am not an atheist. I can see that atheists have made contributions to society. Bill Gates for example.

    Pharaoh was not an atheist, he was a pagan worshipping the Egyptian gods.

  10. Recently visited Turkey, Istanbul and Cappadocia. Great people, food, and scenery. My guide was named Jihad, and the driver was Hussien.

  11. “But it is the third, and perhaps biggest, group that concerns me most: those commentators who boast otherwise impeccable anti-racist credentials yet tend to be silent on the subject of Islamophobia; journalists who cannot bring themselves to recognize, let alone condemn, the growing prevalence of anti-Muslim feeling across Europe – or acknowledge the simple fact that the targeting of a powerless, brown-skinned minority is indeed a form of racism.”

    In regards to racism, it is not racism to disagree or be opposed to a religion whom one believes has a negative impact on the world or a particular society. As to Muslims being a brown skinned powerless minority, that is simply not true. Muslims come in all colors and they wield a great deal of power.

    With that said, I will say that Islam does have its positive aspects but they are overshadowed by the very vocal minority in Islam who hold extreme views and are willing to impose those views by use of threats, violence, and murder. This minority, though only a small percentage of Muslims, is very large in actual numbers as Islam is a very large religion with more than a billion members. I have looked at the various numbers of Muslims that hold, what are considered extreme views and 5% seems to be a median number looking at the various estimates. This would not mean that 5% of all Muslims are terrorists, simply that they would be sympathetic to terrorist actions or goals. Five Percent of the Muslim population would be Three hundred Fifty One Million two hundred seventy eight Thousand people. The United States currently has about Three hundred fourteen Million people as citizens. This large number of Muslims with extreme views provides a solid economic base for various activities associated with their beliefs, along with a strong support structure to give cover for same activities. Their fervent beliefs also seem to silence Muslims with more moderate views as the more fervent Muslims have no compunction in terms of killing those that oppose them. For example the Danish cartoonist, who was killed, was in a country with a minority population of Muslims. Muslim extremists still managed to kill the man, with the results of chilling speech across the globe in most major news markets. Compared to this, how brave would even moderate Muslims have to be to speak out in areas of the world within which Islam dominates society?

    It is very easy to see why some people see Islam as a religion of intolerance and violence as a small percentage but very large number of Muslims are intolerant and do support violence to change people’s lives with the goal to save their souls or to prevent them from corrupting others, thus endangering their eternal welfare. It is also clear that these extreme Muslims drown out and silence the views of much more moderate Muslims because of their willingness to chastise any who disagree with them. This is not a new problem and it happens in societies across the globe. Look at various gang infested areas within the United States. A very small number of hoodlums hold a large number of people in fear simply because the smaller number is willing to shoot you and is willing to go hide out in some basement. While as a law abiding citizen you and your family is easily found as you live in a home and are afraid to act. Even if you do act and pick up a gun you will be arrested as eventually will be the gang member hiding in a basement. The trouble is the gang member will have a strong support base in prison while you , as someone who fought back against the gang, will simply be killed as you enter prison unless you choose to live 20 years in isolation. It is simply easier to keep quiet and try to stay out of the way or to simply join the gang culture and thus gain a measure of safety within the short term and with any luck also within the long term.
    The point is that Islam has its problems, and it is responsible for most of its own problems. It is a religion that scares many people simply because of the number of modern atrocities being committed in its name by aggressive misguided followers. People want to live in a community where you can draw cartoons, however misguided or mean spirited, and not be killed for your drawings or your beliefs. The fear of allowing groups of religious peoples that may have a very small number of followers who are willing to kill you or injure you for your beliefs or actions do affect the groups welcome in many communities. Until Islam is able to gain control of its more violent members and their supporters it will continue to generate a good numbers of people that oppose them and oppose a islamic community being established near them.

  12. Good post criley. Muslims want us to ignore their violence problem. Quit claiming racism.

    The statistics I have read say small % violent, supported by 40-50%, the rest in Rodney King mode

  13. ccc,

    sup. don’t be trying to nail jello to a tree.

    yo yo, m bennet:
    “Its surprising that neither of you knows anything about self criticism.” i’m short and bald. haven’t been to the gym for a week. lol. what are you talking about?
    “Double standards all the time.” no. it’s divine revelation that is held to a higher standard. please can we all agree that american foriegn policy is flawed. we have killed millions. we fire bombed dresden and tokyo, nucked nagisagi, and hiroshimo. we nearly wiped out the native american indians. took most of mexico from the mexicans. and we are going to keep it. drone strikes, that we will continue until the crazy muslims stop attacking us. so is the koran and sunnah perfection? or is it flawed. who really has the double standard. or worst a standard that equates god to man?
    “Did you know that the majority of weapons givin to these extremist ideologies were given by the US?” so what. you know how many guns i have? yet to shot a civilian.
    “It didn’t matter how bad the Mujahideen were, as long as they didn’t support Communism.” jesus fucking christ…… so we should have let the soviets run over the afghans? when fighting a proxy war, who do you give the weapons to? the WARloards. should have never given the afghan our stingers?
    “When the socialist Baath Party came into power Saddam (in the same party) tried to assasinate their candidate. He failed and fled the country.” oh my god. yeah we all know he was shot and had to swim across the tigris or the euphrates. what the fuck does that have to do with the price of tea in china? AGAIN the point is that your divine text is wacked. your “path to water” is insane.
    “But because the America, had the suspicion, again, that they would support Communism they sent in the CIA who took out General Qassim (the new leader). Saddam quickly returned, came into power, and what do you know? We suddenly decide that this terrorist could be an ally, so we gave him weapons of mass destruction.” now it’s WE, so you are an american? again you speak of politics as if they are divinely guided.
    “In Iran, the CIA also took out the democratic leader (suspected of Communism, big surprise?) and replaced him with the Shah, a cruel dictator, who used weapons supplied by the US to attack his own people. Its all good for America and Britain becuz they profited from the oil which they took as compensation for their support of the Shah.” oh my fucking god. not the shah again. yes, yes we all know about jimmy cater’s support for the shah.

    “You are both hypocrites. Both of you are quick to point the blame on Muslims when terrorists start killing Muslims, as Hassan pointed out, you do LACK UNDERSTANDING, and you proved him right with your ignorant quotes.” how can a quote be ignorant?
    “Whenever this newspaper talks about hate crimes against Muslims, you are both quick to say “What about what dem MOozlems are doing to the Christians?”” you don’t find it funny that there is an article about a mosque being vandilised in england, yet people are actually being killed in nigeria?
    “Well same to you, what about what your country has done to Muslim countries for the last century?” what about it? we operate in our own interests. we don’t cliam it to be div…….how fucking dense are you.
    “I don’t hear a peep out of you. You only concentrate on what the OTHER countries are doing but refuse to look at yourself.” what are you talking about. we are self critical all the time. it is those who claim to know “the truth” who aren’t self critical. you still refuse to say that stoning people is wrong. instead you come up with non-sensical excuses.
    “What about Drone attacks? Killing 10 civillians if it will get you one terrorist?” not sure about your numbers.
    “If you did support it, which you probably do,” i do.
    “you have no right and no decency to talk about what those terrorists do to Muslims,” why not?
    “considering what you are doing in Pakistan and Afganistan is worse than anything the Taliban or Al-Qaeda is doing.” NO. NO. NO. you show yourself to be insane.

    “Your quote,
    we understand what it is muslims believe is “justice”.” so do you not support rajm? your justice is crazy.
    “No you don’t, and you proved so by quoting how terrorists stone women to death even though it goes against the Sharia.” why is it against sharia. your “prophet” stoned people, even if it was just a handful.
    “Now I’m sure, as ignorant as you are now, and slow witted,” i’m pretty stupid, no doubt. lmfao.
    “you want to say “Well yeah, last time I checked stoning was in the Quran” but alas again your ignorance shines through.” i never said stoning was in the koran. come on now. you know better than that. i know muslims often say, “stoning isn’t mentioned in the quran”. it’s in the hadiths.
    “You have to go to court, have 4 male witnesses testify to seeing the act, then test the witnessess to see if they are lying. All legal procedures. No punishment without evidence.” holy fucking shit. really. your stupid excuse about proof again. so in one breath it’s “stoning isn’t in the koran” then in the next it’s the 4 male witnesses. so you in favor of stoning or not???????????????????
    “The Taliban torture ppl, accuse them without proof, and stone people.” so what if they had proof? you continue to miss the point. it’s not about the burden of proof. it’s about the punishment.
    “But hey, again, I don’t hear you talk about what America does in Guantanamo. Same as the Taliban,” did we stone someone in gitmo? must have missed that story. that’s right you don’t know what same means. i thought it was hilarious when the female cia woman went in to interogate a guy with red ink on her hand. told him it was menstrual blood. wiped it on him and wouldn’t allow him to wash it off. MY GOD…. IT’S THE SAME AS BEING STONED TO DEATH.
    “only you get all righteous and think you are better than those Muslim countries.” TRU DAT. so you don’tthink america is better than saudi arabia, iran, mali, indonesia, morocco, eqypt??
    “Another thing Ahmed should have pointed out about atheists was arrogance.” i think you mean to call me a douchbag here.
    “Their is plenty of that in the story of the Pharoh and Moses.” yeah i’ve read exodous.

    “Their is plenty of that in the story of the Pharoh and Moses.” yeah it’s a story. didn’t really happen. or do you believe the most merciful the benefical killed innocent male children??????

  14. Bennett, to get the flavor of the thing from the other side, just replace the word atheist in your post with the word muslim.

  15. Mike, those people probably had to give up their kids to be stoned, the mores of the tribe demanded it.

  16. Amazing. Am reading about this man and he has been insulting non muslims calling them animals of no law, etc. which I think is standard muslim practice.

    Was that before or after somebody called him goatf–ker?

  17. anon,

    you referancing this hadith?

    Then a woman of Ghamid, a branch of Azd, came to him and said: Messenger of of Allah, purify me, whereupon he said: Woe be upon you; go back and beg forgiveness from Allah and turn to Him in repentance. She said: I find that you intend to send me back as you sent back Ma’iz. b. Malik. He (the Holy, Prophet) said: What has happened to you? She said that she had become pregnant as a result of fornication. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Is it you (who has done that)? She said: Yes. He (the Holy Prophet) said to her: (You will not be punished) until you deliver what is there in your womb. One of the Ansar became responsible for her until she was delivered (of the child). He (that Ansari) came to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said the woman of Ghamid has given birth to a child. He (the Holy Prophet) said: In that case we shall not stone her and so leave her infant with none to suckle him. One of the Ansar got up and said: Allah’s Apostle, let the responsibility of his suckling be upon me. She was then stoned to death.

  18. Mike why are you so bothered by stoning? The victims die pretty quickly and it is better than being burned alive as they were doing in Guatemala.

    It is a community entertainment thing. Validates the tribe.

    Mormons have some muslim attitudes, they have an arrogant stance toward the rest of us, as in: we have the most up to date info straight from God and the rest of you should wise up and realize it

    I lived for a yr. in Utah. Mormons very social, family oriented, great dancers, clean habits. Crazy heresy.

  19. i think it would hurt. plus the first woman i ever loved was an adulteress. would have hated to have to see her stoned. or me lashed 100 times and banished for a year.

    wasn’t joseph smith hanged for peodophelia? after he was talking to gabriel? given the golden tablets, the book of morom?

    the more things change the more they stay the same.

  20. Mike,
    It seems you really don’t understand my view on stoning. I guess writing to much fried your brain so I will concentrate on this small example. I gave the example of Guantanamo. Then I explained it was irrational to judge people overseas of having these violent laws for stoning when we have torture here in the USA. That is a double standard. Get it now? As for stoning, adultery creates a big problem in all societies. Illegitimate children could not inherit wealth, an unfaithful partner could contract a fatal STD which could end of killing his family he went unchecked, etc. The illegitimate child growing up without a father does not have a father for guidance. Statistically, this leads to an increase in crime at a younger age, sexual abuse, drugs, etc. It destroys a civilization. The whole point of stoning was not to punish ppl for committing adultery, it was to punish ppl for open lewdness (still punishable in the USA) and to stop ppl from accusing innocent chaste women. As for the hadith you continue to quote, which is only the second part of the full hadith, SELF CONFESSION. They wanted to be judged in this way, as a way of repentance. They had to testify against themselves to be punished. I get that you still believe it is crap to think of God and a Day of Resurrection where you will be judged for your sins, but these ppl did believe and they wanted to repent. That was how they repented. If you want to criticize anything it should be for their stupidity, not stoning. Your first lover cheated on you? Do I think she deserves to be stoned? No. She is not Muslim. Is she an atheist? Lol, why would I stone her? God’s punishment in the hereafter is worse, wait for judgement then.

  21. Amazing. Am reading about this man and he has been insulting non muslims calling them animals of no law, etc. which I think is standard muslim practice.

    Was that before or after somebody called him goatf–ker?

    Amazing Anon,
    Getting quotes from the Quran out of context. The Quran does not call non muslims animals. They are parables to describe human behaviour. Sometimes it describes their hearts like stones, refusing to budge. Deaf, dumb, and blind they will never understand, ring a bell? Apparently you just proved the point the Quran was trying to explain.

  22. Bennett, I don’t think most people are consulting or remembering their scriptures before they act. I do think muslims have a tribal attitude of disdain which amounts to hatred of non muslims. Under any communal mindset, individual human life is not worth a bean.

    Strange how asian societies don’t seem to take sex/adultery at least in men as very important. It does not destroy their civilization. In some places chastity of women not important. Eskimos offered their wives to visitors. Freshens up the gene pool I guess.

    I think muslims are hypocritical about how much sex goes on, esp homo sex, among them.

    Cutting down too many trees without replanting them will destroy a civilization. The 4 horsemen will destroy civilization. Sexual misconduct? Nah….

  23. Anon,
    Perhaps you should look towards the end of the Roman and Greek civilizations. Now look at this scenario. If boys and girls fornicate, but decide at the end that they don’t want to keep the child, they are left with two options, abortion (basically desensitizing ppl to murder) or adoption (throwing your responsibility away). Both destroy the morale of a society, and a society without morale has never been able to survive. As for adultery, marriages fall apart, and families split. This generates a lot of negative feelings within a family, arguements over custody, large bills to pay lawyers, and child support to be paid. I also consider rape a form of sexual misconduct, but over 80% of the rapists CAUGHT don’t get more than 10 years in prison. And the rape and sexual abuse is only going up in this country. As for homosexuals, well, that is serious sexual deviation. An atheist may not believe in God because it is illogical and unscientific. Well, homosexuality is both illogical, unscientific, and immoral. It violates every level of wrong (atheists don’t give an open negative opinion becuz they don’t want to associate atheism with intolerance). They get their rights, next comes bestiality. If I get consent, is it alright if I have sex with a minor? She gave her consent, and I’m 28 and a responsible young adult. What makes you think women don’t already know what they want? Why is 17/18 the majical number? For obvious ethical reasons (not scientific or logical) we will not allow this. Now look at incest. What if a man and woman who are cousins or even siblings want to get married? Seriously, they are both adults, they give consent, and they use condoms, or get sterilized, and decide on adoption. Will you allow that? If everyone was gay, then we would not be able to preserve mankind. Lol, that will never happen. One of only two reason we don’t steal is because that would definitely throw society into chaos. The logical arguements given would be, how would you like someone stealing from you? Reply: I hide my money very well.
    Well what if everyone in the world was stealing? That won’t happen. Just like how not everyone will be gay at once, so I see no harm.

  24. Mike,

    NO. NO. NO. you show yourself to be insane.
    Please explain my insanity if you also support drone attacks on innocent civilians. That doesn’t make you insane? As for statistics, America is taking out SUSPECTED ppl of terrorism. You won’t be able to kill off all of them no matter how hard u try. Its worse than Vientnam. Obama Admin. will only report successful attacks on Taliban militants. Don’t talk about succes rate percentage or anything. Oh, and I’m sure of course that BBC does not downplay the torture in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib. Comparing menstrating to stoning? Nope, u missed the point completely. Majority of the prisoners are held without charge or evidence, I think tortured without proof is worse than stoning with 4 male witnesses to testify (which I don’t believe has ever been achieved).

    so you don’ think america is better than saudi arabia, iran, mali, indonesia, morocco, eqypt??
    Course they are not, Iran had a democracy which America destroyed. Indonesia, Egypt, Morroco, Mali? Same with them if you watch the CIA activities, or look at the genocide we commited along with France. Interesting how u couldn’t name one Muslim country we haven’t screwed up.

    “i think you mean to call me a douchbag here.”
    No, I think I hit the nail on the head.

    Their is plenty of that in the story of the Pharoh and Moses.” yeah it’s a story. didn’t really happen. or do you believe the most merciful the benefical killed innocent male children??????
    Yep, typical atheists answer. Well the Quran does not tell us whether the plagues killed the children or not but one should realize that if the children grew up they would continue to oppress the Hebrews the way their ancestors did for 800 years. End up sinning and going to hell. Don’t believe children go to hell cuz I reject original sin the way Jesus rejected original sin. As for whether this story actually happened they do have historical proof. The Quran mentions that God would preserve the body of the Pharaoh as a sign for later generations. The dead body of Ramses II, The Egyptian King in the era of Prophet Moses (PBUH), it’s age is approximately 3000 years old and it was found by the Red Sea at the place called Jabalain. Now in the Royal Mummies Chamber of Egyptian Museum in Cairo, Egypt. But as mentioned, the Quran describes arrogance as the reason atheists deny the signs of God. (Surely many people are heedless of our signs) Quran, 10:92

    “we will continue until the crazy muslims stop attacking us.”
    Wow, if that aint insanity I don’ know what is. 9/11 was over 10 years ago. Second reason, which country did the terrorists come from? I guess we just blow them all up right? I guess 9/11 is justified for everything.

    Before America joined WW 1:
    A U-boat torpedo hit ocean liner Lusitania near Britain and some 1200 people, including 128 Americans, on board lost their lives. Subsequent investigations revealed that the major explosions were inside the Lusitania, as it was secretly transporting 6 million pounds of artillery shells and rifle ammunition, as well as other explosives on behalf of Morgan banking corporation to help their clients, the Britain and the France. It was against US laws to transport war materials and passengers in the same ship.

    As for 9/11, I think if people can see 3 mega steel structured buildings fall, symmetrically, at free fall speed, a complete collapse within a mere hour of burning, and NOT think explosives were already placed within the building are blind. Btw, the WTC tower was not hit by a plane and fell within an 1 hour of burning. My God, I never knew steel could melt that fast!

  25. So, Bennett, what in your view destroyed the glorious moorish civilization? It was off to a roaring start, squashed a couple of civilizations in its invasions and then strangely collapsed and now lies thrashing in the sand.

    I think certain behaviors are personally destructive and harm society. But to bring down a civilization I think you need large scale destruction of your resources, war, turmoil…

  26. Bennett, we are all at the mercy of what we read, so it behooves us to read a variety.
    http://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/k-4/features/F_Making_Sense_of_Mayan_Collapse.html

  27. The modern demographic dilemma – the old live too long and not enough young coming up to replace them – that could bring things to a halt for at least a while…might have to start bumping off the old and forbidding abortion and birth control…

  28. bennet,

    you’re right. i don’t understand your view on stoning. you say it’s not in the koran. and isn’t the koran the final authority. yet then you defend it with your 4 male witness (still don’t know why they have to be male) and it rarely happens. then you say it only happens when there is a confession. so again why the witnesses? now you bring the whole, it washes away the sin arguement. they want to be stoned. again the jew trys to cover the “divine verse of rajm”. sounds like to me they don’t want to be stoned. and i’m the one with no attention to details? and you say it only applies to muslims. but they are jews. i know i know it’s “their law”, its in the torah. so i was raise a catholic, confirmed a catholic. so would you judge me by the torah? that is crazy. as americas we all need to agree on what the laws of the land will be. there should be no, we muslims have our laws, jews have theirs, hindus their, buddist theirs. if a buddist monk sets himself on fire in protest in america, i’m pretty sure we would put him out and they would try to save his life. you can’t commit suicide by stoning.

    so you are infavor of stoning given proper evidence or confession….how about pregnancy?

    “marriages fall apart, and families split.” so shouldn’t divorce be outlawed in your mind then? if divorce is so detrimental to the society then why wouldn’t the society outlaw it. so would you stone a husband who abuses his wife, children. that is detrimental to the family? so you would stone a rapist? how about a deadbeat dad or mom? definately stone the fags, right?

    “the rape and sexual abuse is only going up in this country” you have said this before. but you’re wrong again. itpeaked in the 90s. guess you didn’t see my link. here it is again for ya.

    http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2010/12/50-year-trends-in-violent-crime-in-us.html

    “The overall numbers of Forcible Rape also peaked in the early 90’s at about 110,000″

    “Why is 17/18 the majical number? For obvious ethical reasons (not scientific or logical)” funny, you through majic back at me but: so if it’s for ethical reasons then one would hope that the most ethical man to ever walk the earth, wouldn’t have married a 9 yearold. no it is for scientific reason. we understand human development better now. did you not see my link of the dangers of early teenage pregnancies. and ofcourse those number fluctute from state to state.

    “What makes you think women don’t already know what they want?” shit what a woman wants can change from day to day. what a 12 year old wants is propobly quite different from what an 18 year old wants. now you seem to defend child brides?????????????????? again your self-contridiction confuses me.

  29. “NO. NO. NO. you show yourself to be insane.” if my reasoning is insane to you, i’ll take that as a commpliment.

    sure you don’t want to bring up the napoleonic wars and the illuminati?

    there used to be an old fag who claimed to be the last american rothschild who would drink at mastresy’s in downtown st pete. he said he had the second largest collection of faberge’ eggs in the world. second to queen elizabeth.

    jp morgan is small potatos.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family

    always fun talking to ya.

    all the greeks are gone. i should tell my sister that her son alexander, doesn’t need greek lessons. what happened to rome? empires come and go. but it is finances, not sex that bring them down.

  30. M. Bennett,
    May Allaah reward you for your efforts to talk to people who really, in the end, do not want to understand nor have the ability to critically analyze anything. Most Americans can barely spell or read and take most information from the TV as if anything that comes out of it can be called truth.
    Unfortunately I can say this because I am from here….but it is a sad state of affairs. Our educational system is on life support and naturally what they are taught is very basic and most cannot dream of any type of higher education.
    I think the one thing that comes out clearly from the posts of the other 2 is their great fear and ignorance of Islam and Muslims. I think they should be afraid but for a totally different reason. You see where I am in the states the people who are coming to Islam, we call it reverting, are women. These free women are choosing Islam over Christianity, Judaism, and all the other isms. Lol so between the rise is reverts and the rise in lesbians…these guys should be very scared. Lol Islam will prevail even if the disbelievers don’t like it. Not by any human efforts but by the decree of Allaah the one who owns everything and everyone. Go Mike and anon and fight your creator….you will never win. :)
    Aaishah

  31. Aaishah: I am sorry to tell you this but you spelled Allah incorrectly. you spelled it Allaah which is one to many a’s. The correct spelling is Allah. I know this because I had the closed captioning on my television when I read your statement. Actually you misspelled it twice. I took a look at the Koran and it spelled it Allah, though several Islamic websites spelled it similar to you I am going to go out on a limb and state they spelled the name incorrectly. Perhaps it’s a Madras problem as I have heard that many of them are struggling. Here is a website that lists all 99 names of God to help you with any further problems.
    http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm

  32. ccc,

    don’t be crazy. it’s a transliterated word. i would bet the aa is acceptable. http://blog.iloveallaah.com/2011/04/accurate-spelling-of-allah/

    aaishaah,

    you use all the double a’s you want. spelling is not important. of course i can’t spell worth a shiite.

    “May Allaah reward you for your efforts to talk to people who really, in the end, do not want to understand nor have the ability to critically analyze anything.” see that mr. bennet. you should be thanking me. i might be getting you kicked up a few levels of paradise. maybe you will be within a level of the mujahideen. of course the distance between those two are worlds apart. anyways aaishah, what of my critical analyze that is wrong? come on you can do better then just throwing around generalities. so mr. bennet says that there was only a handfull of stonings. do you agree? he said they where all confessions? do you agree? would you stone an apostate? stone anyone? so you think stoning “washes away” the sin? so you “critically” analyze islam?

    “Most Americans can barely spell or read and take most information from the TV as if anything that comes out of it can be called truth.” wow that’s a broad brush. so, given our massive stupidity, it’s must be some divine intervention that keeps us the only world suppeerrpower. must be jesus. wait maybe it satan.
    “Unfortunately I can say this because I am from here….but it is a sad state of affairs. Our educational system is on life support and naturally what they are taught is very basic and most cannot dream of any type of higher education.” so why isn’t it what you where taught? so compared to the islamic world our education level rates where?
    “I think the one thing that comes out clearly from the posts of the other 2 is their great fear and ignorance of Islam and Muslims.” no i’m not scared of anythiing, not even your mighty creator. as for my ignorance, i’m starting to think i know more about islam then many muslim here. so do you think hudud can be modified?
    “I think they should be afraid but for a totally different reason. You see where I am in the states the people who are coming to Islam, we call it reverting, are women. These free women are choosing Islam over Christianity, Judaism, and all the other isms.” so your slaves aren’t converting, just the free women?
    “Lol so between the rise is (sic) reverts and the rise in lesbians…these guys should be very scared.” first i think anon is a female, not sure. second your lesbian comment maybe right. i see lesbians everywhere. but of the maybe 5 headscarf wearing women iv’e seen in the last month, none looked to be converts. my bad, that’s right we are all born muslim, so they are reverts. lol
    “Lol Islam will prevail even if the disbelievers don’t like it. Not by any human efforts but by the decree of Allaah the one who owns everything and everyone.” you keep praying. it’s a very analytical thing to do.
    “Go Mike and anon and fight your creator….you will never win.” so much for your reading comprehension. anon isn’t an atheist. maybe you need a refresher course. maybe a school in afghanistan would give you a better education then you got from cleavland.

    btw i don’t even own a tv.

  33. aaishaah,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

    funny how the latitude that islam spread out across seems to not be the most literate? yemen and eqypt at least than 65%. how long have they been muslim. also don’t you find it funny that you attempt to make fun of me for barely being able to read. yet your prophet couldn’t read. you might want to watch yourself, that might get you some time in hell. you do know that when muhammad visited hell he reported back that it was mostly occupied by women.

    (dongo, 56%? seriously. ya’ll can do better than that. why don’t you start a literacy program. may get your passed sins forgiven. if we work together, we may be able to keep you out of the lake of fire.)

  34. less

  35. Aaishah,

    maybe you will answer a simple question with a simple answer. a yes or no. are you in favor of stoning? and if you would like to elaborate on your reasoning that would be great. but a yes or no would be greatly apprecciated. not sure why your champion m bennet can’t bring himself to say he supports stoning.

    perhaps if you answer truthfully allaah will reward you?

  36. Daarn it must be my Aamerrican eduvacation as I looked everywhere and could not find why one would use 2 a’s though I did see it used quite a bit on the web.

    Aaishah I want to send to you my most humble and poorly educated apology. Without any spelling errors your post is a beacon of light to all of us who have wallowed in the muck of our public education system. It grieves me that I must attempt to deliver my thoughts through the haze of ignorance imposed upon me by forced participation in an educational system that has left me intellectually destitute. I shall and must continue to live my life looking up at the bright stars of the learned which serve to illuminate the bleak dull landscape that I and my peers are forced to live upon. Alas I must end this as the Spongebob Marathon is about to start.

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