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Right-Wingers Would Be Shocked to Learn That Islam Has Been Part of American History Since Its Founding

10 October 2012 Loonwatch.com 67 Comments Email This Post Email This Post

Right-Wingers Would Be Shocked to Learn That Islam Has Been Part of American History Since Its Founding

Recently, just as turmoil in the Middle East erupted, New York straphangers were treated to hateful anti-Muslim billboards, courtesy of Pamela Geller, leader of “Stop Islamization of America.” The ads, which declared that radical Muslims are “savages” waging war on the civilized world, created a furor and resulted in widespread defacements (for a roundup, check out the Awl), the arrest of a journalist , and possible changes to the rules governing subway and bus advertisements that might incite violence.

Islamophobia is back with a vengeance. Geller, a self-appointed hate czar, catapulted herself to racist celebrity back in 2010 with shrill denouncements of an Islamic community center in Lower Manhattan near the site of the World Trade Center. Since then, her repeat warnings of Islam’s foreign threat to America have resonated powerfully in a post-9/11 world where violent protests in the Middle East over a crude anti-Muslim film have triggered a fresh wave of anxiety.

It would undoubtedly shock Geller and her Islamophobic buddies to know that Muslims have been in America for so long they could almost have formed a welcoming committee to the Daughters of the Revolution.

Consider this: Anthony “The Turk” Janszoon van Salee , son of the president of the Republic of Salé in Morocco, was among the earliest and richest settlers of Manhattan island, a devout Muslim, and the ancestor of Cornelius Vanderbilt, the Whitneys, Humphrey Bogart, and, according to family lore, Jacqueline Bouvier. That’s right: the Lady of Camelot apparently had a mixed-race Muslim as an ancestor! One of van Salee’s first properties was a farm in lower Manhattan acquired in 1638 located on the north side of the stockade along present-day Wall Street, just blocks from the Park Place Islamic center characterized by Geller as a foreign presence on sacred American soil. A defender of minorities, van Salee became the first settler of Brooklyn. Coney Island, which abutted his property, was known as “Turk’s Island” until the 19th century.

Muslims are feeling unwelcome in America today, but followers of Muhammed were living here before the arrival of English in Spanish-controlled Florida and French Louisiana, where slaves were imported from the Senegambia region of Africa, home to a large Muslim population.

Influenced by the tolerance of the Enlightenment, America’s founders considered Islam’s place in the new republic despite widespread fear of Barbary pirates and a sense of European rivalry with the Ottoman Empire. As befitting a student of law in a religiously diverse land, Thomas Jefferson purchased a Quran to learn about the Islamic legal code – the same Quran that was used in the swearing inof Muslim Keith Ellison to the U.S. Congress. In 1776, John Adams published “Thoughts on Government,” which praised the prophet Muhammad as a “sober inquirer after truth.” Ben Franklin set up a non-sectarian meeting house in Philadelphia, declaring in his autobiography that “even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service.”

Tea Partiers occasionally know and distort these facts, but they are completely ignorant about another side of American Islam. Until recently, the study of the African transmission of Islam to America has been neglected, partly because materials are scarce, and partly because early observers were often ignorant of Islam or had reasons for downplaying the fact that God-fearing, literate people among the enslaved had to be written off as heathen and backwards in order to justify the institution.

And yet the numbers of enslaved Africans who were Muslims was significant: Conservative estimates put the number at 10 percent of all slaves, with some estimates running as high as 30 percent. A hodgepodge of sources –from plantation records to runaway slave advertisements to WPA interviews – show that Muslims went to great lengths to observe their religion; that Islam was a marker of status in the larger African American society; and that African American culture reflects the influence of early Muslims. On Sapelo Island, Georgia, for example, the congregation of the First African Baptist Church always prays to the east, the direction in which the church is pointed, and bodies are buried pointing to the east. The Nation of Islam may have been the 20th-century manifestation of a very ancient connection to a religion that had lived on in the South for centuries among African Amerians even though it was overtaken by Christianity. Historian Michael Gomez points out that Elijah Muhammad, born in 1898 in Georgia, grew up at a time when Islam may still have been practiced by African-born Muslims, and the children and grandchildren of early Muslims were likely aware of their Islamic heritage.

On plantations throughout the South, particularly in the early period of slavery, it would have been possible to see enslaved Africans with names like Mustapha and Fatima kneeling on prayer mats, their faces turned toward the rising sun. (Writing of “Arabic-Africans” along the coast of Georgia, Joel Chandler Harris called them “not the most numerous, but the most noticeable” type.) Some planters particularly sought slaves from Senegambia for their knowledge of rice cultivation, and some Southern slave owners considered Muslims superior to non-Muslims as workers, though others considered their education and literacy to be dangerous.

A few enslaved Muslims achieved notoriety, such as Bilali, a “driver” who managed a large plantation on Sapelo Island, Georgia and who, when called upon by his owner to defend the island against the British in 1813, gave a reply that revealed his status and religious pride: “I will answer for every Negro of the true faith, but not for the Christian dogs you own.” (Bilali went on to defend the plantation with a force of 80 armed slaves.) In Fayetteville, North Carolina, a jailed runaway slave from Charleston, South Carolina, astonished locals with his princely bearing and the beautiful signs he made on the wall, writing from right to left. Omar ibn Said, a Muslim scholar, was bought by the brother of the governor of the state, who was intrigued by this highly literate man who eventually wrote his autobiography in Arabic, the only slave to do so in captivity. His Arabic Bible, procured with the help of Francis Scott Key, can be seen today in the library of Davidson College.

Polls show that Americans remain unfamiliar with Islam, and according to the ACLU, anti-mosque activity has bubbled up in more than half of U.S. states in the last five years. Yet Islam is inextricably woven into the fabric of American history, from the distinctive service of Muslims in all American wars, including the Revolution, to the legacy of their descendents, which include notable figures. (Abolitionist Frederick Douglass changed his name from Frederick Bailey, and it is possible that the name “Bailey” is a form of the Arabic common name “Bilali.”)

Muslims wish to be seen as Americans, and a look at America’s Islamic roots proves that they have every right to be – even more, perhaps, than those who rail against them. It’s time to clarify the confusion about the role of Islam in early America and remind ourselves that far from being a foreign presence, Muslims have exerted an influence on American culture even greater than their numbers would suggest from the very beginning. The real foreign presence is Islamophobia, which is completley at odds with America’s founding principles.

For further information on America’s Islamic roots, see Allan D. Austin’s African Muslims in Antebellum America. Helpful articles include Michael Gomez’s “Muslims in Early America” published in the Journal of Southern History and Thomas Custis Parramore’s “Muslim Slave Aristocrats in North Carolina” published in the North Carolina Historical Review. I was aware of this history as a child because the last historian mentioned is my late father.

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67 Comments »

  1. Thank you for this!

  2. Thank you for this!

  3. Not just right-wingers, but many of the left also!

  4. Not just right-wingers, but many of the left also!

  5. Islam was there in America before Columbus went there.Though for westerns this is part of “inconvenient” history they will never recognize or teach to their children.

  6. “Right-Wingers Would Be Shocked”

    I’m not

  7. The movie series Roots also confirms what this article is saying.

  8. :)

  9. Unfortunately this info is unlikely t’ trickle down t’ the uneducated xenophobes who have made blind jingoism their life’s work. They are not interested.

  10. Also, Prophet Muhammad is part of the US Supreme Court building’s North Wall Frieze as one of the 18 greatest lawgivers in all of history. (OK, maybe shouldn’t post this so that Islamophobes don’t blow up the SC or deface it.)

  11. good article. yes muslims have been in north america since before the united states of america. so i guess that makes them part of the genocide of the native americas. great quote from the the muslim. ““I will answer for every Negro of the true faith, but not for the Christian dogs you own.”” ah “the true faith”, “christians dogs”, nick you see why i love this site. i can’t stop laughing. so what was a “driver”? does that mean he controled the slaves? was he a slave? or more a slave manager. or both? how did he “drive” them? with the whip?

    perhaps jefferson having a koran is one reason why he was so in favor of seperation of church and state. having read the punishment for fornicating outside of marraige he may have feared being lashed. well then again he had sex with sally hennings, which his right hand possessed. so i guess he was in the clear.

    supprised they didn’t mention the statue of muhammad at the supreme court building, an homage to him being a great law giver. oh yeah that is right, they want it removed. always hard to figure out what the muslims want or like? sharia or freedom? theocrocy? democrocy? the rise of the caliphate? world dominace, tolerance? freedom of speech, blasphemy laws?

  12. Islam has it’s place in American history, especially with Benjamin Franklin’s inspirations from the Ottoman Turks (and even then, he was only interested in the political structure of the Ottomans, not so much the religion) or the pre-Christian religion of many African slaves who were brought over here, but Islam wasn’t all that influential in American history, not until Malik Shabazz al-Hajj (Malcolm X) broke from the Nation of Islam and proposed Islamic values as a solution for ending racism.

  13. Eww, the comments section on the main site are always filled with the same smug, regressive bigots.

  14. Eww, the comments section on the main site are always filled with the same smug, regressive bigots.

  15. Unfortunately, Tea party and it’s godfather of fanatics of republicans always use the Islamphopia in election times to fear and scare American voters on issues relevant to national security or the existence of Muslim Americans in America! What shocks me and most certainly irritates me though is how republicans always talk to about liberties and securing Americans to practice their freedom,liberties without fear!
    Now my question is why Muslims can’t left alone without Fox news media war machine appearing almost every day to picture Islam and Muslims in America as savages or monsters? So sad that this happens in the country that is ranked world number one on freedom and self liberties rights! I cant to hear Fox news go bankruptcy so people like Bill Orealy, Glen beck and Shown Hanity retire or stay unemployed.
    God Bless America!

  16. Most Americans know very little about real history.

  17. The founding fathers were Masons and had to swear on the Holy Quran!! Message!!!

  18. I read that they removed the statue.

    There were some muslims no doubt but this is one of the muslim fantasmagorias (there are several) related to the main delusion that muslims invented and discovered everything way ahead of anybody else because Islam makes one so much smarter and better than the rest of the human herd.

    I have seen claims that the Amerindians are muslims and therefore the americas are muslim lands and must be ruled by the sharia. Islamorada by the way means purple island, not islam is here.

  19. As regards Jackie, a great many people in US are of mixed race. Mrs. Obama is 40% white.

  20. i don’t think so. didn’t renquist deny their request. i’ll ask my god.

  21. looks like we only did a half ass bow to the demands of muslims.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

    “In 1997, a controversy erupted surrounding the frieze, and tourist materials have since been edited so they call the depiction “a well-intentioned attempt by the sculptor to honor Muhammad” that “bears no resemblance to Muhammad.”[54] In 1955, a statue of Muhammad was removed from a courthouse in New York City after the ambassadors of Indonesia, Pakistan, and Egypt requested its removal.”

  22. Ibrahim,

    “Fox news media war machine appearing almost every day to picture Islam and Muslims in America as savages or monsters? So sad that this happens in the country that is ranked world number one on freedom and self liberties rights!” you do know that fox news is not the government? you aren’t ibrahim hooper of cair?

  23. There’s Fox and then there is HuffPo. I don’t follow Fox, but generally the media is biased leftward.

  24. Thomas Jefferson kept a copy of the Quran in his library.

  25. “Now my question is why Muslims can’t left alone without Fox news media war machine appearing almost every day to picture Islam and Muslims in America as savages or monsters?”

    Not being from the US I have to say, from what I know of Fox, he has a point.

  26. Interesting, of the eleven posts preceding mine, ten are by the same Islamophobes who trot out the same tired tripe time after time after time. There fecal matter of posts is getting really, really tiring. Why don’t you go play somewhere else and let us enjoy these articles, without your stereotypical bovine fertilizer?

  27. “Why don’t you go play somewhere else and let us enjoy these articles, without your stereotypical bovine fertilizer?”

    Debate is important. This site should not be an agreement shop like loonwatch

  28. William Shelton,

    “Interesting, of the eleven posts preceding mine, ten are by the same Islamophobes who trot out the same tired tripe time after time after time.” how is any of that the same old tripe? no “non-contextual” quotes from the koran. no hadiths.
    “There fecal matter of posts is getting really, really tiring.” sorry bill, maybe you need a nap?
    “Why don’t you go play somewhere else and let us enjoy these articles, without your stereotypical bovine fertilizer?” ok, but it is fun playing here. i got an ignorant, arrogant suggestion for ya. read da articles, but not da comments.

    rim shot, thank you i’ll be here all week.

  29. Douglass was son of slave Harriet Bailey and an unknown white man. Douglass comes from Scott novel Lady of the Lake. He was one of us Christian dogs.

    I wonder what sort of muslims these slaves were, and why were they sold into slavery by their fellow muslims in Africa. Wrong tribe? wrong sort of muslim?

  30. anon,

    muslims can’t enslave other muslims. or at least they aren’t supposed to. they aren’t supposed to kill innocents either. but that doesn’t seem to have taken hold after 1400 years. perhaps the hadiths on night raids of the polytheist are confusing them.

    but the tuareg tribe controled much of the pan sahara slave trade. taking non-muslim africans back to the arabian peninsula. those are the guys in mali destroying tombs in timbuktu right now. but this guy being a muslim form the senegal/gambia region was most likely taken by the christian portuguese.

  31. I had read that the slaves were mostly prisoners of war and animists. In US slaves were famous for voodoo spells and charms, not muslim beliefs.

  32. in islam you are only supposed to enslave prisoners of war. or of cource the women and children of the men you just killed in the war. many historians will say that is why the muslims didn’t try to convert the sub-saharan africans. they wanted to keep a ready supply of slaves. so yes most the slaves were animists. and that mixed with christianity to create voodoo and santeria. mostly in the caribbean. but europeans certainly ventured into africa to capture any blacks they could to sell. i mean shit, it was over 100s of years. i’m sure there was all sorts of scenerios.

    also the tuareg tribe controlled much of the pan-sahara slave trade. africans to the arabian peninsula. saudi arabia had a slave market until 1962. they are the guys destroying ancient tombs in timbuktu these days. formally funded by ghadaffi.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19905905

  33. Good article even if it didn’t mention the Moorish Science movement which especially interests me…

  34. Mike,

    Thanks for your comments. Christian dogs? God forbid? But, how would you view when Jews called our Prophet a Madman, Christians called Him the Antichrist, Beast of Bible, an impostor, a charlatan and many things more? Jews called and do call Muslims as the progeny of the slave girl Hagar albeit it is still debated whether mother Hagar was a slave girl or not. Her identity is still debated.

    For your very divinely kind information, Muslims did not take part in annihilating the native Americans. It was Christians (white Europeans, commoners along side the looters), who did this. If Muslims did, how could Muslims have still become a minority unlike the Whites in the Americas? When they themselves were enslaved from elsewhere and brought into other lands overseas, how could they engage in ethnic cleansing being under the rule of their white masters? Is there any neutral reference on Muslims killing native Americans? Or as you always allege that Muslims forcefully convert others, is there any substantive reference of any native American embracing Islam in the colonial era of the Americas fearing for life from Muslims?

  35. A fun fact : Morocco was the first Muslim/Arab country to recognize the Independance of the US and the 13 colonies as soveriegn and integral American territories through an old and unbroken treaty of friendship signed between the Founding Fathers and Sultan Muhammed III in 1777. For more : https://www.facebook.com/pages/MoroccanAmerican-Treaty-of-Friendship/124113734300528?ref=ts&fref=ts

  36. A fun fact : Morocco was the first Muslim/Arab country to recognize the Independance of the US and the 13 colonies as soveriegn and integral American territories through an old and unbroken treaty of friendship signed between the Founding Fathers and Sultan Muhammed III in 1777. For more : https://www.facebook.com/pages/MoroccanAmerican-Treaty-of-Friendship/124113734300528?ref=ts&fref=ts

  37. Have also read that muslims like to keep a pool of infidels for slaves and jizya, so they are not keen to convert entire population.

  38. dongo,

    yes jews and christians and probably hindus have called muhammad all sorts of things. in my sophmoric attempt at immersion therapy for muslims on this site, to understand american freedom of speech, i called muhammad a bastard. remember? i think you threatened to shove a hot poker up my ass.

    he can call christians dogs all he wants. what is funny is that the genius author would put it in the article. let’s see who the author is? loonwatch, that explains alot. see when trying to portray islam in a positive light, to mostly christians, you might not want include that quote. how about just say he defend america with an army of 80 muslims during the war of 1812. when those bastard british burnt down our white house. jane, what do you have to say for your people?

    hagar. now we are going back. have you done your hajj? what is it seven times back and forth between the two pillars.

    “For your very divinely kind information, Muslims did not take part in annihilating the native Americans.” you are right, your sense of humor is not getting better, my mistake.

    “When they themselves were enslaved from elsewhere and brought into other lands overseas, how could they engage in ethnic cleansing being under the rule of their white masters?” well the Anthony “The Turk” Janszoon van Salee didn’t have a white master. he owned land, that at sometime probably belonged to native people.

    the article says: “was among the earliest and richest settlers of Manhattan island, a devout Muslim, and the ancestor of Cornelius Vanderbilt,” manhattan. werent the indians “cheated out of manhattan for some beads”?

  39. another interesting fellow this website has brought to my attention.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Janszoon_van_Salee

    i was at the biltmore house a couple of years ago. no mention that the commodore or george where descendants of a muslim. maybe a muslim orginization can patition them to but up some sort of display. george’s library had 10,000 books in it. wonder if there was a koran?

    then again, some might say the biltmore house, much like the taj mahal is a self-indulgent monument to audacious wealth?

  40. “when those bastard british burnt down our white house. jane, what do you have to say for your people?”

    I went to the same school as Benjamin La Trobe, who designed much of the White House – although he was there a few years before me and went to the boys school whereas I attended the girls school.

  41. Benjamin La Trobe… who? thank google for google. and wiki is his son. microscoft the holy spirit.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Henry_Latrobe

    so you Moravian? he was there “just” a few years before you. damn that nhs must be doing a great job.

  42. The officer who burned down the White House ran out the front door with Madison’s hat and a sofa cushion in his hands. Occasionally his ghost is seen running down the street, hat in one hand cushion in the other. He disappears into a fountain.

  43. My parents are Moravians, I’m not

  44. i had never even heard of the moravians before. so many sects within christianity. well most religions are divided dozens of ways.

    i know what you mean. i went to 12 years of catholic school my self.

  45. The town I saw on TV was Lewes, the parade they have Nov. 5 commemorates among other things the burning of 17 Protestants in front of what is now theTown Hall back in the bad old days.

  46. Moravians are just a protestant offshoot – look up Jan Hus – I think my parents got involved because of the reduced school fees

  47. thanks jane. but yeah i clicked the link threw the latrobe page. read all about the moravians. the lamb of god is their symbol carrying a flag that says, the lamb has conquered…..god damn i’m losing my memory it was only a couple of hours ago…. we shall follow? maybe the muslims have something with this no drinking. oh well you have to live a little.

  48. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Church

    damn, i was close. but given the short time frame should have been verbatim. i’ll commit this to long term memory. the lamb has conquered, let us follow him. the lamb has conquered, let us follow him. the lamb has conquered, let us follow him. the lamb has conquered, let us follow him.

  49. Mike, that phrase is laser cut into my brain.

  50. How interesting :D

  51. Mike,

    No, I didn’t. Rather I said about 8 types of measures; none had the provision of death sentence. And I also requested you not to insult our Prophet which you still do.

    So, what’s wrong in portraying Islam positively? Everyone tries to do such to his/her faith. Christians have ruled much greater parts of the world. Ain’t they portraying theirs to others in positive light? Yes, Bilali should be called a notorious Muslim because he insulted the followers of a faith whose founder Himself is deeply revered by Muslims.

    I personally don’t want to call/label Christians as dogs.
    No, not yet. I don’t know what that moving is but that has been a long tradition even before since pre-Islamic era.

    Yow, Mike, good example. But in your blind rage on Muslims and Islam, you forgot to mention that I was talking about Muslims in the new worlds. There is no neutral reference informing Muslims taking part in new world massacres. However, once you have said about the Janszoon case, I think I remind you of some far brutal cases: when Muslims took over India, there were non-Muslim lands and properties which they captured and distributed among Muslims. Many recipients were slaves (mainly Turks) some of whom rose even to become rulers themselves (Iltutmish, Giasuddin Balban, Kutubuddin Aibek). On taking Constantinople, almost same things happened. When the Spaniards took over and decimated the Incas, many lavish churches were built over the ancient Inca/Maya/Aztec buildings and temples. When the British took over India from the Mughals, they usurped Muslim properties by all means. The Muhsin Fund for advancing Muslim education was looted like anything by Britain. The Muslim properties were snatched for British expenses and the rest was distributed among the collaborator BDSM Hindus. The money looted from here heavily aided the industries in Glasgow, Manchester, Dundee and Liverpool. The world famous Muslin weavers’ fingers were severed so that they could not weave that cloth. Robert Clive, when being tried at the British parliament after being labeled as a world famous brute by Edmund Burke, replied that he was amply amazed to think how he restrained himself from more looting. Yet, he remains an honoured figure in England and is termed as Baron of Plassey. During the WW1, Britain and France promised the Arabs about aiding to become free from the Shittoman rule. What they received and what were the results for cooperating with the British and French, need no mention. After Egypt became independent and nationalised the Suez, Britain and France attacked it. Why?

    Probably they were. But these are typical of European colonizers. Even after the “Enlightenment”, they could neither shed off their crusading psyche (this goes on to date), nor their greed to live on others’ blood and flesh. God knows what kind of enlightenment they invented and spread worldwide.

    If you talk about ancestry being polluted because a Muslim was included into the bloodline, please blame the in-takers or the descendants today also. Mayor Boris Johnson has a Turkish ancestor. Many Russians have Tatar ancestors who were Muslims. What is your position about that?

  52. Anon,

    Yes, they did. Are you going to reestablish it?

    There were some muslims no doubt but this is one of the muslim fantasmagorias (there are several) related to the main delusion that muslims invented and discovered everything way ahead of anybody else because Islam makes one so much smarter and better than the rest of the human herd.

    No, no, no. Everything good was done by Christians and nothing good by Muslims. Whenever there is any discussion, there is always the attempt to attribute the positive ones to the West (if not possible, non-Muslims) and the negatives to Muslims. Poet Seneca wrote in the 3rd century about Thule and a vast land beyond Thule. Did he discover the Americas? There are models of aircraft found in the ancient American civilizations. Don’t they pre-date Wright brothers? The alphabetic system came from Carthage. Don’t they pre-date the Greco-Romans? Byzantine iconoclasm is a well-recorded event in history. Did Muslims force them to do so? Or the Protestant iconoclasm? The Mahabharata says about atomic explosion like events. Did it inspire the US to use them on Japan especially when Oppenheimer recited chants from the Mahabharata just before the mission began?

    The BJP, RSS, VHP all claim that the native Americans are Hindus as they have been named Red Indians. Did not it irk you? In my country, a hyper vicious group named Hindu-Buddhist-Christian Unity Front alleged that Bangladesh was torturing Jews in Bangladesh whereas there is no Jewish populace in Bangladesh. So?

  53. The Americas have been discovered and rediscovered. Columbus thought these lands were the coast of Asia and not a separate land mass. If that had been true, he would have been in India. He persisted in thinking he had discovered islands off the coast of India until he sailed south and saw the mouth of the Orinoco.

    Have read that there was tobacco stuffing in Egyptian mummies. Maybe when we read the phrase “far off lands” in some old account, it is us they are talking about.

    Some Christians would call their invasions and conquests “bringing the light of Christ to the heathen”, just as some muslims would say they brought the light of Islam to Spain or India. Both are missionary religions careless of the harm they do and accompanied by opportunists.

  54. “So, what’s wrong in portraying Islam positively?”

    Nothing is wrong with portraying it positively, just as there is nothing wrong with portraying it negatively. As long as both arguments are based on facts.

  55. The America I know and love has always included Muslims!

  56. “Islam has it’s place in American history, especially with Benjamin Franklin’s inspirations from the Ottoman Turks (and even then, he was only interested in the political structure of the Ottomans, not so much the religion) or the pre-Christian religion of many African slaves who were brought over here, but Islam wasn’t all that influential in American history, not until Malik Shabazz al-Hajj (Malcolm X) broke from the Nation of Islam and proposed Islamic values as a solution for ending racism.”

    Ending racism? The NOI in the beginning was all about hating whitey, the devil. Some mainstream muslims came here and told them they couldn’t base it on hatred of whitey and be called muslim. So I guess they toned it down some, but Farrakan and the other main speakers have always been big hate ravers, like Wright, Obama’s pastor.

    Notice what happened to Malcolm when he tried to pull away.

    Obama represents a NOI area. SPLC calls it a hate group.

  57. dongo,

    “Mike,

    No, I didn’t.” didn’twhat. sorry to much time between posts. threaten me with a hot poker. you may be right. i may be conflagerating all your hot poker referances with aikido and i think one with anon, with me. good to hear your days working in an idustrial complex that gives you access to tungston carbines doesn’t put me in any hot poker danger. my rectum is sensitive.
    “Rather I said about 8 types of measures; none had the provision of death sentence.” again thank allah for small mercies.
    “And I also requested you not to insult our Prophet which you still do.” yeah, requet denied. muhammad was an idoit. marrying a 9 yearold set a bad president. stoning poeple even worst. lashing poeple, unforgivable. he was a true bastard.

    “So, what’s wrong in portraying Islam positively?” well first of all it’s a lie. unless of cousre you think torture is a positive thing.
    “Everyone tries to do such to his/her faith.” that is why we have seperation of church and state. religion is often a bad thing.no way to rule a country.
    “Christians have ruled much greater parts of the world.” and how has that worked out? especialy for the non-christians they ruled?
    “Ain’t they portraying theirs to others in positive light?” they are. and liars, they are.
    “Yes, Bilali should be called a notorious Muslim because he insulted the followers of a faith whose founder Himself is deeply revered by Muslims.” fuck jesus.

    “I personally don’t want to call/label Christians as dogs.” no you should call them dogs.

    “No, not yet.” your hajj?
    “I don’t know what that moving is but that has been a long tradition even before since pre-Islamic era.” i thought abrahm abondoned hagar and she paniced and went back and forth 7 times praying to allah. then springs gushed forth from beneath the two rocks. kind of like when mary gave birth and was in despair, and gabriel told her to shake the palm tree. and dates fell to her. like the manna from heaven to the israelites wandering the desert for 40 years. strange allah provides no more for the faithful. all the miricales are dried up i guess?

    “Yow, Mike, good example. But in your blind rage on Muslims and Islam, you forgot to mention that I was talking about Muslims in the new worlds.” sorry don’t follow your referance again?
    “There is no neutral reference informing Muslims taking part in new world massacres.” yeah, i wa joking about muslims being part of the native indian genocide. thatis why i said your sense of humor hasn’t improved.
    “However, once you have said about the Janszoon case, I think I remind you of some far brutal cases: when Muslims took over India, there were non-Muslim lands and properties which they captured and distributed among Muslims. Many recipients were slaves (mainly Turks) some of whom rose even to become rulers themselves (Iltutmish, Giasuddin Balban, Kutubuddin Aibek). On taking Constantinople, almost same things happened. When the Spaniards took over and decimated the Incas, many lavish churches were built over the ancient Inca/Maya/Aztec buildings and temples. When the British took over India from the Mughals, they usurped Muslim properties by all means. The Muhsin Fund for advancing Muslim education was looted like anything by Britain. The Muslim properties were snatched for British expenses and the rest was distributed among the collaborator BDSM Hindus. The money looted from here heavily aided the industries in Glasgow, Manchester, Dundee and Liverpool. The world famous Muslin weavers’ fingers were severed so that they could not weave that cloth. Robert Clive, when being tried at the British parliament after being labeled as a world famous brute by Edmund Burke, replied that he was amply amazed to think how he restrained himself from more looting. Yet, he remains an honoured figure in England and is termed as Baron of Plassey. During the WW1, Britain and France promised the Arabs about aiding to become free from the Shittoman rule. What they received and what were the results for cooperating with the British and French, need no mention. After Egypt became independent and nationalised the Suez, Britain and France attacked it. Why?” sorry i don’t have the time or the drunken energy to google all that. but your history knowledge is strong. i’m ignorant of much. nut wasn’tit eisnhower who pressured the brits and the frogs to give the canal back. i think the jews were involved in that plan to retake the suez as well.

    “Probably they were. But these are typical of European colonizers. Even after the “Enlightenment”, they could neither shed off their crusading psyche (this goes on to date), nor their greed to live on others’ blood and flesh. God knows what kind of enlightenment they invented and spread worldwide.” ok, not sure how that has anything to do with anything? muslims can claim islam to be “perfect”, christians can claim to know “the truth”. neither of which is true.

    “If you talk about ancestry being polluted because a Muslim was included into the bloodline, please blame the in-takers or the descendants today also.” where did i talk about polluted bloodlines? you seem to care more about hybrids then others.
    “Mayor Boris Johnson has a Turkish ancestor. Many Russians have Tatar ancestors who were Muslims.” tatars? are those like causacs? fierce horsemen?
    “What is your position about that?” on what? turks and russian interbreeding. may lead to peace in the reigion. i have no problem with people of different cultures inter marrying. it is islam that says that muslim women can’t marry non-muslim men. why is that? what is your position on that?

  58. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars

    my bad looks like the cossacks (sorry for my poor spelling) fought them. you do know that in america we study american history and some european history. i know very little of asian history. i think the opium wars and the boxer rebelion came up once. the sino-russo war. but not much in central asia. the ottomans of course but the finer points you mention are usually over my head. my ignorance knows no bounds.

    holy shit you aren’t going to bring up the crimean war again? napolean the third and wellington? the charge of the light brigade. the battle over who would be the protectors of the christians in the ottoman empire? the first widely photographed war in history. i only know that because i read about it a few years ago while searching for a life.

  59. Mike,

    Rectum and urethra are sensitive for all. Don’t worry, I won’t thrust those into your ones but those of Suckshito’s.

    Look, Mike, I am against death penalty unless for high treason or murder. There are, as far as I believe, much better ways for punishment.

    Fine, I don’t crave for your granting my request. But I say that the age of mother Aisha is still a hotly debated issue among Muslim scholars themselves. So, you better remain quiet about that. Stoning, lashing, beheading all exist in other faiths even those who have no faith. The progenitor of the Western civilization, the “Greco-Romans” had exactly the same punishments. In ancient Greece, if anyone were caught of fornication, they would publicly strip him/her and insert a big, fat radish into their recta; that was called Rhaphanidosis. And a bastard is a person borne out of wedlock. Our Prophet had his parents well-known persons to bear Him.

    Sometimes torture is necessary. Otherwise, there would not be any security agency anywhere on earth.

    The USSR was totally godless. What peace of heaven did it bring on earth? The US is apparently a “privilege to no particular faith” country. Is it so? No. President Obama is a Christian. But many people of USA still believe him to be a Muslim. Juicy witch Geller says that Obama admin is waging war on US. Christian fundamentalists have been influential in US government since the Regan era. The British empire was entirely based on religious vigour. So, it is hardly strange that their heir will be something different than themselves. After the fall of the USSR, professor Huntington wrote clash of civilizations theory. I like his theory and respect him but don’t understand why he is criticized. He spoke out the dirty truth after all. But professor was a different thing. What was worrisome that Christian clerics and thinkers from the West and East began to claim that the root of the West was Christian to which Islam and Muslims had always been a grave threat; so, they should mercilessly be dealt with. And the 9/11 tragedy gave them a trillion lightyear boost.

    That has just wiped out the natives and changed the national character to suit the eternal interests of the West, the Whites and their puppets forever.

    I don’t have the courage or audacity to. Even, thinking of such heinous acts, I will no longer remain a Muslim. And I again ask you, not to speak ill of Prophets. If you are so bold, then I advise you Mr. Genghis Khan, go to Vatican and bark this: you may not return in one piece.

    No, I will not. Because my faith teaches me to respect people of other faiths.
    Yes.

    May be He testing the faithful. See, the faithful Israelites got their own lands back after many centuries.

    Yes, it hasn’t for people like you.

    This was another manifestation of their crusading spirit.
    It has many things to do. A person who has experienced enlightenment, will s/he go for looting others for centuries? Will they go to thrive at others’ tears and claim shamelessly that “Look, we are the master nations on earth. All must follow us and who doesn’t shall perish. We are the yardstick for civility and progress. Those who are not with us are against us.”?

    If they were untrue, billions of people wouldn’t be following them and become sensitive about at the slightest provocation.

    I am totally not in support of marriage for myself. So, I don’t care who marries whom.

  60. “Rectum and urethra are sensitive for all. Don’t worry, I won’t thrust those into your ones but those of Suckshito’s.” ok. i was never that worried about it. like i said, i have and ar-15. if i see aguy coming with a hot poker he will never get within 10 feet of me.

    “Look, Mike, I am against death penalty unless for high treason or murder. There are, as far as I believe, much better ways for punishment.” see you are smarter than muhammad. don’t be afraid to criticise him. after all he lived in the 7th century or the first, depending on when you want to start the clock. how bright could he have been. plus he was illiterate. no one to base modern law on.

    Fine, I don’t crave for your granting my request.” cool. see, maybe you are starting to grasp american freedom of speech? adam, what do you mena nothing productive?
    “But I say that the age of mother Aisha is still a hotly debated issue among Muslim scholars themselves. So, you better remain quiet about that.” lol. my bad maybe you aren’t getting it.
    “Stoning, lashing, beheading all exist in other faiths even those who have no faith.” sure. but what modern societies, other than muslim ones, are advocating a return to such behavior?
    “The progenitor of the Western civilization, the “Greco-Romans” had exactly the same punishments. In ancient Greece, if anyone were caught of fornication, they would publicly strip him/her and insert a big, fat radish into their recta; that was called Rhaphanidosis.” we that sucks. then again the greeks might have enjoyed that? we may have taken democrocy from the greeks but we left that part out. see that is the problem. muslims aren’t willing to drop some of the koran. instead they say it is perfection. no need to leave the outdated parts behind. salafist. fuck that.
    “And a bastard is a person borne out of wedlock. Our Prophet had his parents well-known persons to bear Him.” tru dat. i was using the term in the more modern way. kinda of equivalent to asshole. yes he was not an actual anus, no one is. but people are called assholes all the time. not even sure why bastard in the original form is an insult. why a child would be responsible for their father or mother’s actions. so someone does’t know who their father is, why is that a stain on the kid?

    “Sometimes torture is necessary. Otherwise, there would not be any security agency anywhere on earth.” well i would agree that in the eminent danger scenerio, there is a bomb about to go off. you know the person has knowledge of the bombs location, then yes torture maybe justified. not people having consentual sex. big dif.

    “The USSR was totally godless. What peace of heaven did it bring on earth?” none, so? what does that have to do with anything?
    “The US is apparently a “privilege to no particular faith” country. Is it so? No. President Obama is a Christian.” seperation of church and state, secularism doesn’t mean that people in the government can’t be religious. it means that the government can’t endorse or hold one religion above others. nor suppress a religion, unless the actions of the paticipants are unlawful. no human sacrifice allowed. as opposed to sharia that holds islam above all else. you really need to wake up everyday and read the first amendment. in one hundred years you might get it.
    “But many people of USA still believe him to be a Muslim. Juicy witch Geller says that Obama admin is waging war on US.” so what? that is freedom of speech and freedom of thought are all about. you can say and think crazy things all you want.
    “Christian fundamentalists have been influential in US government since the Regan era.” shit long before that. the damn christians got alchol banned back in the 20s. we are still yet to shake some of the puritanical mindset. but some of us are working on it.
    “The British empire was entirely based on religious vigour. So, it is hardly strange that their heir will be something different than themselves.” yeah that is why we have a king too. that makes no sense. part of the reason the founding fathers were adament about seperation of church and state.
    “After the fall of the USSR, professor Huntington wrote clash of civilizations theory. I like his theory and respect him but don’t understand why he is criticized. He spoke out the dirty truth after all.” ok. sorry but i have no idea who huntington is.
    “But professor was a different thing. What was worrisome that Christian clerics and thinkers from the West and East began to claim that the root of the West was Christian to which Islam and Muslims had always been a grave threat; so, they should mercilessly be dealt with.” religion shouldn’t be the root of any society. reason should be.
    “And the 9/11 tragedy gave them a trillion lightyear boost.” true. 9/11 was bad for all of us. other than the fundamental wackado christians. really bad for those who died.

    sorry going to have to figure out what your next paragraphs are referancing? you make it hard to follow you sometimes.

    “That has just wiped out the natives” that is what?

    “No, I will not.” will not what?

  61. for your divine consideration

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

  62. “That has just wiped out the natives and changed the national character to suit the eternal interests of the West, the Whites and their puppets forever.” are you talking about the “enlightenment”? yes the west has great “sins”in it’s past. yet wasn’t it you who have called islamic empires, the uyddamaiya, who were the first four caliphates? and the ottomans. no empire has been perfect, just like no “prophet” has brought “perfect, divine revelation”.

    “I don’t have the courage or audacity to. Even, thinking of such heinous acts, I will no longer remain a Muslim.” ok, i have no idea what you are refering to.
    “And I again ask you, not to speak ill of Prophets.” what? above yo just said: “Fine, I don’t crave for your granting my request.” so what is it. you care if i speak badly of the “prophets” or not?
    “If you are so bold, then I advise you Mr. Genghis Khan, go to Vatican and bark this: you may not return in one piece.” first i’m a hun. so you may call me attila, but not genghis. anyways you do know that a woman attacked the pope, twice. you do know that john paul II forgave the guy who shot him. but if you buy me a flight to italy, i’ll say anything you want.

    “No, I will not. Because my faith teaches me to respect people of other faiths.
    Yes.” ok, still can’tfigure out what you will not do?

    “May be He testing the faithful. See, the faithful Israelites got their own lands back after many centuries.” lol. the old testing. you sound like a true taliban. don’t worry about our military defeats. allah hasn’t abandoned us, he is just testing us. this is why the israel palistinian conflict will never rresolve. the palistinians keepthinkingthey can win, and allah is just testing them. time to doubledown on their losing strategy. allah will send his angels to fight on thier side like in the battle of badr. maybe if they blow the trumpets and march around the city, the walls of jericho will come tumbling down.

    “Yes, it hasn’t for people like you.” what have i done now?

    “This was another manifestation of their crusading spirit.
    It has many things to do. A person who has experienced enlightenment, will s/he go for looting others for centuries? Will they go to thrive at others’ tears and claim shamelessly that “Look, we are the master nations on earth. All must follow us and who doesn’t shall perish. We are the yardstick for civility and progress. Those who are not with us are against us.”?” again don’t know what you are referancing here, but sounds like a critic of muhammad.

    “If they were untrue, billions of people wouldn’t be following them and become sensitive about at the slightest provocation.” lol. come on, you aren’t making the old, ‘a billion chinamen can’t be wrong’ argueement. you know what p.t. barnum said? there’s a sucker born every minute.

    “I am totally not in support of marriage for myself. So, I don’t care who marries whom.” something we can argee upon. marriage whould be taken out of the government realm. it is a private contract between people. whether one man and one woman. two men or two women. or multiple women and one man or multiple men and one woman. or any combination there of.

  63. Columbus went to america after spanish recoquesta.reason?he got the old maps from qasr e al hambra palace of grenada ،which arabs used it since long.but these whites setteler will not assept this.reason?i dont know.

  64. I like what you guys tend to be up too. Such clever work and coverage! Keep up the very good works guys I’ve incorporated you guys to my personal blogroll. acfbkecckkdd

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